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Price_Of_Valor

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Price_Of_Valor

I am pretty impressed with the level of detail being put forth in way of game mechanics for Escape from Tarkov.  Which gets me excited about what you have in store for the medical system, as it is almost always completely neglected in every other game – including military Sims.  I was wondering if you could give a basic overview of how the medical and wounding system works in the game.  Mainly I’m interested in if there are basic anatomical structures coded into the player models such as; lungs, major arteries/veins, bones – that ballistics interact with when they travel through the body?  Or is it, shot in the lower extremity and bleeding out regardless of ballistic path?         

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Europoor
10 hours ago, Dutchman said:

I am pretty impressed with the level of detail being put forth in way of game mechanics for Escape from Tarkov.  Which gets me excited about what you have in store for the medical system, as it is almost always completely neglected in every other game – including military Sims.  I was wondering if you could give a basic overview of how the medical and wounding system works in the game.  Mainly I’m interested in if there are basic anatomical structures coded into the player models such as; lungs, major arteries/veins, bones – that ballistics interact with when they travel through the body?  Or is it, shot in the lower extremity and bleeding out regardless of ballistic path?         

It's included in FAQ's so yeah :) Personally I remember this sentence: bullets can shatter, and one piece can just pass through your body, and another can hit an artery, which by your character can bleed out.

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Price_Of_Valor
7 hours ago, Europoor said:

It's included in FAQ's so yeah :) Personally I remember this sentence: bullets can shatter, and one piece can just pass through your body, and another can hit an artery, which by your character can bleed out.

Thank you for the reply Europoor.  I searched the FAQs for the information you provided, but could not find it.   While one of the statements indirectly hints towards something along the lines of what you described; there doesn't seem to be anything, direct, that supports it. Unless I'm just somehow skipping over it.  Again thanks for the reply, and if you get the time; could you possibly link the source of your information? 

 

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TheTrainStation

I honestly doubt there will be realistic network of arteries/veins.

I'm expecting some kind of percentage/luck based system that is affected by your characters condition and whatnot.

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Europoor
4 minutes ago, TheTrainStation said:

I honestly doubt there will be realistic network of arteries/veins.

I'm expecting some kind of percentage/luck based system that is affected by your characters condition and whatnot.

Now this needs a real answer @TarkovEscaper :) 

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Kabbz
3 minutes ago, Europoor said:

Now this needs a real answer @TarkovEscaper :) 

I would be amazed if they pull of a realistic network of arteries/veins :D Hopefully they do! :)

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Europoor
Just now, Kabbz said:

I would be amazed if they pull of a realistic network of arteries/veins :D Hopefully they do! :)

 

1454747939434.jpg

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Kabbz
Just now, Europoor said:

 

1454747939434.jpg

Haha perfect :D 

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Price_Of_Valor
2 hours ago, TheTrainStation said:

I honestly doubt there will be realistic network of arteries/veins.

I'm expecting some kind of percentage/luck based system that is affected by your characters condition and whatnot.

I don't think they would either, but they wouldn't have to have the entire vascular system, only the major vessels that would require medical intervention,  and only the ones that could be -- or practically be -- treated in the field.   There are honestly not very many. 

Bare with me here; The internal and external carotid that branches from the common carotid in the neck. The subclavian (runs behind the collar bone) which continues as (same pipe, just changes name) the axillary and then brachial, which branches into the radial and ulnar, is all you need for the upper portion of the body.  Then for lower; The common iliac that starts at around the level of the Superior Iliac crest (top of the pelvis), which branches into the internal (ceases inside the pelvis cavity) and external lilac which continues on as the common femoral at the level of the groin, and then branches into the superficial and deep Femoral at the level of the hip joint (the lateral circumflex branches off the deep femoral but then ceases as does the deep femoral, both before the level of the knee)  The superficial femoral continues to form the popliteal at the back of the knee and then branches off into the anterior/posterior Tibial as well as the Fibular.    

That may sound confusing but all it really is -- speaking to one half of the body -- is one pipe (vessel) that runs the entire length of the neck and arm, which branches once in the neck and once at the level of the elbow in the arm -- on the right side.  The only difference on the left side is the carotid doesn't connect to the subclavian but that doesn't even matter.  For each lower extremity; one pipe that branches three times, and runs from the top of the pelvis to the ankles.  Then a venous structure that mostly mirrors the arterial one, with the only real difference that holds importance being the internal and external jugular locations.

Those are the only real areas on the body where massive hemorrhaging would be life-threatening, and could be realistically treated or controlled in the field, unless you have a abdominal aortic tourniquet.          

 

   

           

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MadStalker
15 minutes ago, Dutchman said:

I don't think they would either, but they wouldn't have to have the entire vascular system, only the major vessels that would require medical intervention,  and only the ones that could be -- or practically be -- treated in the field.   There are honestly not very many. 

Bare with me here; The internal and external carotid that branches from the common carotid in the neck. The subclavian (runs behind the collar bone) which continues as (same pipe, just changes name) the axillary and then brachial, which branches into the radial and ulnar, is all you need for the upper portion of the body.  Then for lower; The common iliac that starts at around the level of the Superior Iliac crest (top of the pelvis), which branches into the internal (ceases inside the pelvis cavity) and external lilac which continues on as the common femoral at the level of the groin, and then branches into the superficial and deep Femoral at the level of the hip joint (the lateral circumflex branches off the deep femoral but then ceases as does the deep femoral, both before the level of the knee)  The superficial femoral continues to form the popliteal at the back of the knee and then branches off into the anterior/posterior Tibial as well as the Fibular.    

That may sound confusing but all it really is -- speaking to one half of the body -- is one pipe (vessel) that runs the entire length of the neck and arm, which branches once in the neck and once at the level of the elbow in the arm -- on the right side.  The only difference on the left side is the carotid doesn't connect to the subclavian but that doesn't even matter.  For each lower extremity; one pipe that branches three times, and runs from the top of the pelvis to the ankles.  Then a venous structure that mostly mirrors the arterial one, with the only real difference that holds importance being the internal and external jugular locations.

Those are the only real areas on the body where massive hemorrhaging would be life-threatening, and could be realistically treated or controlled in the field, unless you have a abdominal aortic tourniquet.          

 

   

           

I want you to be my medic !

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sindinero
2 hours ago, Dutchman said:

I don't think they would either, but they wouldn't have to have the entire vascular system, only the major vessels that would require medical intervention,  and only the ones that could be -- or practically be -- treated in the field.   There are honestly not very many. 

Bare with me here; The internal and external carotid that branches from the common carotid in the neck. The subclavian (runs behind the collar bone) which continues as (same pipe, just changes name) ... etc etc..

i was wondering about this too when i got here, then i was thinking into the variables, just like the nerves and bones, for example:

Sunday morning i pick up my deodorant in the middle of tarkov and bang!- i got hit in the rigth axiliary art., and that one, we know that theres passes the axiliary nerv branches surronding the vassel all the buddys from c-5 to t-1, they will be all be mess up due crompresion of balistics and joule force, then the abrasion comes, the cell injury, etc etc.. would i be able to shoot again during the game? was my lady speed stick flower scent worth it?.

and the bones!! lets say some EOD ass***, did a cut w his tactical tomahawk (cuz wy not?) and almost chop my arm off, aaalmost, a little fella did me a torniquette but my humerus was chopped clean, my arm would be an spagetti all the game? does the engine of the game really can separate the injuries depending in what side of the leg they would hit you? would the development team really put effort ( like they did for animation, wich it's really great btw ), in injuries, separate every limb in quadrants,  and " kind of percentage/luck based system that is affected by your characters condition and whatnot. " ?

then the first aid's, they would make a skill medic branch in more deep, capable of letting you make more medical craftmanship arqaic non sterile intruments, for creating during the game. So yeah the idea its great ( if they simplify like Dutchman said, wich isnt wrong!!!!, im not critiquing his coment or something!, i do really like the idea of his).

RESUME: "in my opinion, while the game keep it more simple in that "medical aspect", i think will be nicer, and end user friendly."

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Price_Of_Valor

I really think that a wounding and medical system, which closely mirrors reality, can be done.  Done in a way that is not unnecessarily complicated, but allows for a, almost, full spectrum of treatment options and true-to-life physiological effects that adapt to medical intervention and homeostatic degradation.  You don't need a virtual anatomical and physiologically functioning masterpiece walking around that shits, breathes, "feels", metabolizes, and filters virtual toxins -- that would be next to impossible I would think.  You would only really need ballistic interaction with the body (which is already implemented in the external environment) hit boxes for certain anatomical structures and a network of interconnected mathematics to stimulate change.  As well as the corresponding codding to assess for and treat the changes.     

This has yet to have been done on a game platform, and I believe it is due to the notion of complexity that the human body exudes, as well as medicine in general.  I also believe that this is a hugely missed opportunity; as tactical medicine -- comparatively speaking -- is not complex at it's base.  I teach this stuff for a living now and have 'lived it' for a little over 11 years prior to that. It is the definition of the concept; easy to use hard to master.  Properly done, this could add an enormous amount of value to a game like Escape From Tarkov.  I really hope they rock this aspect out.  I can truly foresee the amount of good that could come from having a widely popular piece of interactive media that uses a realistic system for trauma management; One that uses interventions and injuries that mirror reality to, not only add that value, depth, and gratification to the game, but also raise awareness of the absolute best way to handle trauma in everyday life -- a thing that is, to this day, still severely lacking throughout the entirety of the civilian medical system.

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Kovacs

Medical system is not so complex :

Did the shot pass trough a artery ? Yes -> Severe bleeding / No -> Bleeding
Did the shot pass trough the entire body ? Yes -> You can stitches the wound / No -> You have to pull out the bullet, unless you gonna get a infection
Did the shot hit a bones ? Yes -> You have to open the wound to remove all bullet and bones fragments, then splint (for leg and arms) or bandage (for ribs)
Did the shot pass trough an organ ? Yes -> Severe bleeding + severe handicap / No -> Nothing more

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Europoor
3 minutes ago, Kovacs said:

Medical system is not so complex :

Did the shot pass trough a artery ? Yes -> Severe bleeding / No -> Bleeding
Did the shot pass trough the entire body ? Yes -> You can stitches the wound / No -> You have to pull out the bullet, unless you gonna get a infection
Did the shot hit a bones ? Yes -> You have to open the wound to remove all bullet and bones fragments, then splint (for leg and arms) or bandage (for ribs)
Did the shot pass trough an organ ? Yes -> Severe bleeding + severe handicap / No -> Nothing more

A bit more difficult than that. Hydrostatic shock, ammo frangibility, permanent and temporary wound cavities, adrenaline and shock effects. But you covered most! :) 

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Kovacs
1 minute ago, Europoor said:

A bit more difficult than that. Hydrostatic shock, ammo frangibility, permanent and temporary wound cavities, adrenaline and shock effects. But you covered most! :) 

Sure, but do we need all of that ? I'm not sure.

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Europoor
3 minutes ago, Kovacs said:

Sure, but do we need all of that ? I'm not sure.

The answer is not on me :) devs decide what maximum realism factor they want to use.

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Kovacs
Just now, Europoor said:

The answer is not on me :) devs decide what maximum realism factor they want to use.

Amen

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Scruffy
On February 17, 2016 at 1:50 PM, Europoor said:

 

1454747939434.jpg

Haha, this is awesome.

regarding medical system, I think it might be better, upgraded version of what I've seen in "The long dark"! They did a nice refreshing med system. 

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Europoor
Just now, Scruffy said:

Haha, this is awesome.

regarding medical system, I think it might be better, upgraded version of what I've seen in "The long dark"! They did a nice refreshing med system. 

Drink a hibiscus tea and rest for 8 hours don't really remove hypothermic shock, but agree to some degree.

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Scruffy
16 minutes ago, Europoor said:

Drink a hibiscus tea and rest for 8 hours don't really remove hypothermic shock, but agree to some degree.

"Actually, It's a rose hip tea, totally different thing"... LoL

I just liked the idea of having to treat wounds and affections simultaneously which was well represented on the body chart. Dehydration, dysentery, inflation, blood loss and bleeding... The list goes on...

Edited by Scruffy
Bleeding instead of blessing lol
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Europoor
Just now, Scruffy said:

"Actually, It's a rose hip tea, totally different thing"... LoL

I just liked the idea of having to treat wounds and affections simultaneously which was well represented on the body chart. Dehydration, dysentery, inflation, blood loss and blessing... The list goes on...

So damn close :D 

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Price_Of_Valor
33 minutes ago, Kovacs said:

Medical system is not so complex :

Did the shot pass trough a artery ? Yes -> Severe bleeding / No -> Bleeding
Did the shot pass trough the entire body ? Yes -> You can stitches the wound / No -> You have to pull out the bullet, unless you gonna get a infection
Did the shot hit a bones ? Yes -> You have to open the wound to remove all bullet and bones fragments, then splint (for leg and arms) or bandage (for ribs)
Did the shot pass trough an organ ? Yes -> Severe bleeding + severe handicap / No -> Nothing more

It should stay in the confounds of immediate life threats, with the 'down the road' complications and procedures simulated, through evac to a higher level of care.   Just as it does in actual combat medicine.  Assessing for and treating the things that would kill you the fastest, first; and only in the realm of what is practical and feasible; within the time it takes to evacuate to a higher echelon of care.  So things like debriding bone and bullet fragments aren't practical in the field, as there is no immediate life threat associated with it.  Also exposing a wound and removing foreign objects could, not only, lead to causing an immediate life threat, but also, it is counterproductive in the intent of preventing sepsis.  You would be simply exposing the wound to many more pathogens then you would be preventing -- which would be close to zero regardless; as the pathogens have already been presented into the body when they first entered.  

 

Splinting, on the other hand, would be something to consider, even as it does little to correct immediate life threats, it can give functionality -- even if unrealistically -- back to the player to even the balance of realism and fun.

 

Stitching is another unnecessary technique to implement for treating penetrating and combat related wounds.  Stitching does nothing to mitigate any life threatening bleeding, it only closes holes to help prevent infection, and make it easier for the skin to repair itself; which is a lengthy process.  While preventing infection is a concern, it can be more efficiently done with gauze and ace wrap. As suturing is a delicate and time consuming process.

 

My intent is not to try and harp on you man, just trying to pass along some knowledge. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

    

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Sushi
On 2/17/2016 at 1:33 AM, Europoor said:

It's included in FAQ's so yeah :) Personally I remember this sentence: bullets can shatter, and one piece can just pass through your body, and another can hit an artery, which by your character can bleed out.

I think that has more to do with the cover and ballistics system, in the sense that bullets can fragment upon striking cover and hit you with harmless pieces or go right through and hit you and damage something vital. The fact they have multiple damage zones for the body makes me think there might be a collective blood / HP system that drains as you're damaged on top of vital zones that kill you pretty instantly.

24 minutes ago, Dutchman said:

It should stay in the confounds of immediate life threats, with the 'down the road' complications and procedures simulated, through evac to a higher level of care.   Just as it does in actual combat medicine.  Assessing for and treating the things that would kill you the fastest, first; and only in the realm of what is practical and feasible; within the time it takes to evacuate to a higher echelon of care.  So things like debriding bone and bullet fragments aren't practical in the field, as there is no immediate life threat associated with it.  Also exposing a wound and removing foreign objects could, not only, lead to causing an immediate life threat, but also, it is counterproductive in the intent of preventing sepsis.  You would be simply exposing the wound to many more pathogens then you would be preventing -- which would be close to zero regardless; as the pathogens have already been presented into the body when they first entered.  

 

Splinting, on the other hand, would be something to consider, even as it does little to correct immediate life threats, it can give functionality -- even if unrealistically -- back to the player to even the balance of realism and fun.

 

Stitching is another unnecessary technique to implement for treating penetrating and combat related wounds.  Stitching does nothing to mitigate any life threatening bleeding, it only closes holes to help prevent infection, and make it easier for the skin to repair itself; which is a lengthy process.  While preventing infection is a concern, it can be more efficiently done with gauze and ace wrap. As suturing is a delicate and time consuming process.

 

My intent is not to try and harp on you man, just trying to pass along some knowledge.

Solid info. Basically, stop bleeding, keep airways open and don't screw around with a wound if it's not actively hurting you.

I really hope they don't unrealistically portray hemostatic agents like Quikclot as some magic fix-all.

One consideration is those Russian med kits appear to be mostly drug-based to handle pain associated with a wound sustained? I dunno how current the medical treatment is going to be or if it's arcadey, Farcry 2-style poke-bullets-through-wounds.

Edited by Sushi
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Price_Of_Valor
50 minutes ago, Sushi said:

Solid info. Basically, stop bleeding, keep airways open and don't screw around with a wound if it's not actively hurting you.

Yeah man absolutely! And just to complete it; next you would assess for and seal holes in the chest cavity with an occlusive dressing, monitor for, and relive pressure in the chest if present (tension pneumothorax), check for pelvis stability, ensure that adequate enough blood volume/pressure is present to oxygenate the core organs -- by way of simply checking for the presence of a radial pulse (the one in the wrist) -- and provide IV/IO fluids (preferably warm for reasons explained in the next step) if absent. Ensure to prevent/mitigate hypothermia (blood carries the bodies heat, blood loss = major heat loss. heat loss slows metabolism and severely limits the bodies ability to clot which = death in a bleeding casualty -- even in 140 degree weather. 

With that, if done properly, you will save 99% of battlefield, or even non-battlefield traumatic, casualties that have the possibly being saved.  

It becomes more complicated the more in-depth you go eg; Tactical situation and phases of care, acid-base balance, drugs, pain management, head and eye injuries. splinting etc... But with what you said and the things I added; you have entire basic foundation of tactical medicine. 

1 hour ago, Sushi said:

I really hope they don't unrealistically portray hemostatic agents like Quikclot as some magic fix-all.

One consideration is those Russian med kits appear to be mostly drug-based to handle pain associated with a wound sustained? I dunno how current the medical treatment is going to be or if it's arcadey, Farcry 2-style poke-bullets-through-wounds.

 

I hope the same man, lol, we will have to wait and see I guess...

    

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Starlight
On Thursday, February 18, 2016 at 4:03 PM, Dutchman said:

I really think that a wounding and medical system, which closely mirrors reality, can be done.  Done in a way that is not unnecessarily complicated, but allows for a, almost, full spectrum of treatment options and true-to-life physiological effects that adapt to medical intervention and homeostatic degradation.  You don't need a virtual anatomical and physiologically functioning masterpiece walking around that shits, breathes, "feels", metabolizes, and filters virtual toxins -- that would be next to impossible I would think.  You would only really need ballistic interaction with the body (which is already implemented in the external environment) hit boxes for certain anatomical structures and a network of interconnected mathematics to stimulate change.  As well as the corresponding codding to assess for and treat the changes.    

This has yet to have been done on a game platform, and I believe it is due to the notion of complexity that the human body exudes, as well as medicine in general.  I also believe that this is a hugely missed opportunity; as tactical medicine -- comparatively speaking -- is not complex at it's base.  I teach this stuff for a living now and have 'lived it' for a little over 11 years prior to that. It is the definition of the concept; easy to use hard to master.  Properly done, this could add an enormous amount of value to a game like Escape From Tarkov.  I really hope they rock this aspect out.  I can truly foresee the amount of good that could come from having a widely popular piece of interactive media that uses a realistic system for trauma management; One that uses interventions and injuries that mirror reality to, not only add that value, depth, and gratification to the game, but also raise awareness of the absolute best way to handle trauma in everyday life -- a thing that is, to this day, still severely lacking throughout the entirety of the civilian medical system.

I'd point you at the advanced config options for ACE3 in ArmA 3 if you're looking for an excuse to play with a system similar to what you described - they have a whole slew of bandaging options, IV blood replenishment, possibility for OD if too much morphine/epi/etc. is applied, and whatnot all else.

The short answer to your original question is that the devs have not provided the details of the medical system yet, beyond hinting that it's intended to be rather comprehensive and in-depth. I doubt we'll see them drop too much relevant info here on forums, as it would be prime content for a dev diary-style release.

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