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Roxor

Realistic Movement with Body Armor

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Roxor

Hello. I have decided to make this post because of something that has been bothering me about "realism" games. I come from an infantry background, 4 years. Everything I have seen from this game so far is as realistic as I could imagine a game could get.  But having all this realism in certain areas is nothing if you can't bring the realism into the shooting aspect of the game. 

I want my real life training to count for something when I breach a door. In other games stacking up and breaching dose not work like it should. Because the ether the players character has HP and AP (basic heath system) or because the game is just unbalanced.

When breaching a room with body armor on, believe it or not, the best way to enter is to face the enemy square on. So if you do get hit, you take it in you armor, not your side.

All body armor has its weak points such as under the arm pit, neck line and sometimes crotch and lower back/kidney. So when I shoot a player in any of those spots they should be down or vary vary hurt. It should not count as armor damage or an HP portion. 

Also the US 7.62 Sapi Plates that go inside body armor are useless after getting shot 1-2 times and require replacement before the next patrol (idk about other plates). This way players wont feel or be invisible with some basic body armor.

Last thing. An individual with body armor is just as unprotected as without if the individual dose not know what he/she is doing. 

Slide1.JPGimages?q=tbn:ANd9GcRWiU6ZJz6tl1CFY5_AexKmain-qimg-395f4f8ffea6fa8b7496eda40a44c2

I respect what you guys at Battlestate Games are doing.  Thank you for working on this ground breaking project.  And stay true to the realism. 

 

Edited by Roxor
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Europoor
12 minutes ago, Roxor said:

Hello. I have decided to make this post because of something that has been bothering me about "realism" games. I come from an infantry background, 4 years. Everything I have seen from this game so far is as realistic as I could imagine a game could get.  But having all this realism in certain areas is nothing if you can't bring the realism into the shooting aspect of the game. 

I want my real life training to count for something when I breach a door. In other games stacking up and breaching dose not work like it should. Because the ether the players character has HP and AP (basic heath system) or because the game is just unbalanced.

When breaching a room with body armor on, believe it or not, the best way to enter is to face the enemy square on. So if you do get hit, you take it in you armor, not your side.

All body armor has its weak points such as under the arm pit, neck line and sometimes crotch and lower back/kidney. So when I shoot a player in any of those spots they should be down or vary vary hurt. It should not count as armor damage or an HP portion. 

Also the US 7.62 Sapi Plates that go inside body armor are useless after getting shot 1-2 times and require replacement before the next patrol (idk about other plates). This way players wont feel or be invisible with some basic body armor.

Last thing. An individual with body armor is just as unprotected as without if the individual dose not know what he/she is doing. 

Slide1.JPG

I respect what you guys at Battlestate Games are doing.  Thank you for working on this ground breaking project.  And stay true to the realism. 

 

Well said man. Also the picture that I left brings up the question: Will our characters have blunt traumas from bullets stopped by vests?

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Morpho

Nice, I think coming from a military background will have it's perks, certainly with the weapons. I feel like if any game were to have what you described, it would be this one. MOUT training would give you quite an edge as well I think. 

Also, I gotta ask, were you in USMC or army?

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Roxor
13 minutes ago, Morpho said:

Nice, I think coming from a military background will have it's perks, certainly with the weapons. I feel like if any game were to have what you described, it would be this one. MOUT training would give you quite an edge as well I think. 

Also, I gotta ask, were you in USMC or army?

USMC 0311 2/3 Fox Company Errrrr! 2008-2012

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dobrien11497

I agree with this totally, for realism that this game strives for it needs distinction between where plates are and where they aren't.

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Morpho
On 2/26/2016 at 4:59 PM, Roxor said:

USMC 0311 2/3 Fox Company Errrrr! 2008-2012

Opha mae all day,

0311 2/1 Echo 2011-2015 B|

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Jagular
On 2016-02-25 at 11:25 PM, Europoor said:

Well said man. Also the picture that I left brings up the question: Will our characters have blunt traumas from bullets stopped by vests?

This is a good question. I also wonder, how are the devs going to build the health-system in the game? Is it going to be like 100 HP style? I know that the damage will be localized to different parts of the body but I havent heard much else. 


If so, a suggestion would be that if you were to get shot whilst wearing armor and the bullet wont penetrate, you should take very small amounts of damage whilst being slowed, stopped or even flung to the gorund, depending on the size of the projectile.

Lets say that a 9mm bullet does 25 damage in the chest out of a 100 in total without armor, then a stopped bullet would do maybe 1-5 points of damage per hit whilst every hit degrades the armour by 1-10%, depening ofcourse on what kind of armor it is, size of projectile and distance. For example, a 12g slug fired at you at a distance of 10 yards hitting the chest would kill you even if it didnt penetrate the vest.

Also, a ceramic plate for instance would degrade alot quicker than a steel one, wich is almost indestructible but the ceramic/synthetic plates would give more mobility (some weighing in as little as 5 lbs versus the steel at a minimum of 8) than its steel counterparts.

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Europoor
38 minutes ago, Jagular said:

This is a good question. I also wonder, how are the devs going to build the health-system in the game? Is it going to be like 100 HP style? I know that the damage will be localized to different parts of the body but I havent heard much else. 


If so, a suggestion would be that if you were to get shot whilst wearing armor and the bullet wont penetrate, you should take very small amounts of damage whilst being slowed, stopped or even flung to the gorund, depending on the size of the projectile.

Lets say that a 9mm bullet does 25 damage in the chest out of a 100 in total without armor, then a stopped bullet would do maybe 1-5 points of damage per hit whilst every hit degrades the armour by 1-10%, depening ofcourse on what kind of armor it is, size of projectile and distance. For example, a 12g slug fired at you at a distance of 10 yards hitting the chest would kill you even if it didnt penetrate the vest.

Also, a ceramic plate for instance would degrade alot quicker than a steel one, wich is almost indestructible but the ceramic/synthetic plates would give more mobility (some weighing in as little as 5 lbs versus the steel at a minimum of 8) than its steel counterparts.

This sounds extremely arcadey...

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Jagular
4 minutes ago, Europoor said:

This sounds extremely arcadey...

In what way? They need to implement some sort of degrading system to the armour, dont they? Also, in what way would what I said not be realistic?

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Europoor
6 minutes ago, Jagular said:

In what way? They need to implement some sort of degrading system to the armour, dont they? Also, in what way would what I said not be realistic?

The whole amount-based damage system is just gimmicky. There were SWAT records of stopping a shooter with TWO full magazines of H&K MP5 9mm SMG. Also if you are shot with a 12ga slug, while wearing bulletproof vest you will not feel comfortable, but I'd give you over 90% that you survived. (Why do I have the feeling that you got your infos from FPSrussia?)

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Jagular
24 minutes ago, Europoor said:

The whole amount-based damage system is just gimmicky. There were SWAT records of stopping a shooter with TWO full magazines of H&K MP5 9mm SMG. Also if you are shot with a 12ga slug, while wearing bulletproof vest you will not feel comfortable, but I'd give you over 90% that you survived. (Why do I have the feeling that you got your infos from FPSrussia?)

Gimmicky? & how do you suppose one would calculate whether one is dead or not ingame without some form of amount-based damage system?

That dosent really matter now does it? Not in the way you put it anyways. There are to many variables. But what is certain is that you really only need 1 round to kill a person.

Especially if the round hits the torso. Sure, if the person is given immediate medical attention he may survive, but given the nature of this scenario (the game) the person would most probably die.

What this shooter wearing armour? If so, what kind of armour? Makes quite the difference if one was wearing kevlar or steel.
Even if it was kevlar, how spaced were the hits? Dosent really matter if you put 100 bullets into the armor if they are spaced out enough.

And yes, the slug would kill you. Probably not instantly, (few hits result in an instant kill) but the amount of broken bones puncturing your inner organs would put you to sleep very shortly. Again, you may survive if you are treated instantly and there are cases that seem to defy the laws of nature (knives stuck in foreheads but yet surviving for example) but in general, and again, in this scenario, you'd be dead.
Tell me, does this not look like a shattered sternum, with all that comes with it, to you?
16-20.jpg 


(oh and yes, most probably because you have no idea, really)

Edited by Jagular

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Europoor
18 minutes ago, Jagular said:

Gimmicky? & how do you suppose one would calculate whether one is dead or not ingame without some form of amount-based damage system?

That dosent really matter now does it? Not in the way you put it anyways. There are to many variables. But what is certain is that you really only need 1 round to kill a person.

Especially if the round hits the torso. Sure, if the person is given immediate medical attention he may survive, but given the nature of this scenario (the game) the person would most probably die.

What this shooter wearing armour? If so, what kind of armour? Makes quite the difference if one was wearing kevlar or steel.
Even if it was kevlar, how spaced were the hits? Dosent really matter if you put 100 bullets into the armor if they are spaced out enough.

And yes, the slug would kill you. Probably not instantly, (few hits result in an instant kill) but the amount of broken bones puncturing your inner organs would put you to sleep very shortly. Again, you may survive if you are treated instantly and there are cases that seem to defy the laws of nature (knives stuck in foreheads but yet surviving for example) but in general, and again, in this scenario, you'd be dead.
Tell me, does this not look like a shattered sternum, with all that comes with it, to you?
16-20.jpg 


(oh and yes, most probably because you have no idea, really)

Thanks :) I am well informed now. Not that I was learning about firearms, ballistics, and ammunitions for two years, and still actively researching about topics which I am interested in. But nice opinions I could say. About bulletproof vests, I won't give a list here of per-se 12ga (let's say Brenneke) slug penetration charts. The blunt trauma in most cases, is survivable. The things that make you dead are the permanent and temporary wound cavities, or with big calibers: the hydrostatic shock

Edited by Europoor
Left out part.

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Starlight
4 hours ago, Jagular said:

[...]

If so, a suggestion would be that if you were to get shot whilst wearing armor and the bullet wont penetrate, you should take very small amounts of damage whilst being slowed, stopped or even flung to the gorund, depending on the size of the projectile.

[...] For example, a 12g slug fired at you at a distance of 10 yards hitting the chest would kill you even if it didnt penetrate the vest.

[...]

Anything that's still small enough to be stopped by NIJ level IV gear (e.g., ESAPI) is not going to have anywhere near enough energy delivery to physically knock somebody down. That would, at the the absolute minimum, take something in the 12.7mm range or larger.

And just no. Standard 12ga slugs put out slightly to marginally less energy than 7.62x51mm NATO - anything rated at NIJ level III or higher will stop them cold with very little danger to the wearer.

If you meant trying to stop a slug with a IIIA soft vest, what's the point of even bringing it up? Those slugs are rocking twice as much KE as the maximum rated cartridge (which is a .44 magnum); of course they're going to inflict significant damage.

Edited by Starlight
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Jagular
26 minutes ago, Starlight said:

 

If you meant trying to stop a slug with a IIIA soft vest, what's the point of even bringing it up? Those slugs are rocking twice as much KE as the maximum rated cartridge (which is a .44 magnum); of course they're going to inflict significant damage.

Yeah, well. That was my point from the very beginning, that you would still get wrecked by a slug that didnt penetrate the vest, as, if you were to read what I wrote before you snipped the quote, I was talking about damage being delivered to the player without penetrating the vest.

EDIT: I can however, in hindsight, have been clearer on that when I was referring to the slug hitting the vest, I was speaking about a vest without any hard armour plates.

Now, regarding not being able to be knocked to the ground by anything less than a .50 BMG, have alook at this:


The soldier is clearly knocked to the ground by something smaller than a .50 cal. Probably a 7.62x54r. 

& it aint a .50 cal since the plate stopped the bullet and he survived.

Edited by Jagular
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Starlight
1 hour ago, Jagular said:

The soldier is clearly knocked to the ground by something smaller than a .50 cal. Probably a 7.62x54r. 

& it aint a .50 cal since the plate stopped the bullet and he survived.

Thus why I said "enough energy delivery to physically knock somebody down". You can throw all the youtube videos out that you want, a .308-class round doesn't possess enough momentum to knock somebody over.

What you did successfully demonstrate is one of the various the human psychological responses to being shot.

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RavenSpecV
32 minutes ago, Starlight said:

Thus why I said "enough energy delivery to physically knock somebody down". You can throw all the youtube videos out that you want, a .308-class round doesn't possess enough momentum to knock somebody over.

What you did successfully demonstrate is one of the various the human psychological responses to being shot.

^^^ Same thing as being electrified ^^^

There ARE however videos of modern steel plated armor taking many (Read: A lot) of successive hits from .223/5.56 green tip rounds before buckling. I hope they do a good job with armor and damage models for the sake of the game. But for the sake of realism there are so many variables and equations to take into account with armor penetration. It would be a helluva lot of work to implement.

Edited by RavenSpecV
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Roxor

Ah yes hydro-static shock. You see this is the reason that an HP point system is broken. Even if its localized to different parts of the body.  The reason being is that if you get shot with no armor and if the missile impact creates a pressure wave 500 psi or greater you are likely to experience a rapid (neurological) incapacitation effect and may experience mild to moderate traumatic brain injury (TBI).  This dose not include incapacitation through blood loss. 

Not all bullet impacts produce a pressure wave strong enough to cause neurological symptoms. The likelihood of a bullet impact remote from the brain leading to rapid incapacitation has been demonstrated to increase with the local pressure wave magnitude. The magnitude of the pressure wave applied to the thoracic cavity may result in pressures to the brain sufficient enough to cause mild to moderate traumatic brain injury (TBI).

Test results suggests that the pressure wave effect begins to be noticeable at about 500 psi to the chest and that rapid incapacitation is likely to occur in about half of those experiencing about 1000 psi to the chest. 

Now when you shoot someone in the right place with a controlled pair, otherwise known as a double tap. Even in the thigh or the groin the pressure wave's can reach the brain and lights out. A controlled pair to the groin can actually stop a mans hart. 

If you are a developer or someone that wants to learn more about the links between traumatic brain injury and ballistic pressure waves and the mathematics behind it, then I would suggest that you check this out.

Links between traumatic brain injury and ballistic pressure waves originating in the thoracic cavity and extremities

In the Marines we are taught to shoot "two to the chest, one to the head" or known as a failure drill, or known as failure to stop. Better known as The Mozambique Drill. Its intended to ensure that the target is immediately stopped, by first placing two shots into the larger, easier-to-hit mass of the upper body, then, if the target is still active, following with a third, more precisely aimed and difficult head shot. Due to factors such as body armor, the bolstering effect of drugs, or failure to hit vital organs, the body shots may not be immediately be effective, necessitating the third shot. To guarantee instant incapacitation by impacting the brain and central nervous system, the head shot must be delivered to the area between eyebrows and upper lip (T-box), otherwise, various bony areas of the skull could deflect the bullet. 

Now because in a combat situation a head shot is vary hard, we were later taught to hit the third shot in the groin for the same KO effect.

An HP system is nothing like this, but there are mathematical ways to simulate these effects in game. Unfortunately I suck at math.  I'l leave it to the developers. 

Another more easy way to enplane this is by watching a bullet being shot into some ballistic gel.  Humans are 60% water.

 

Edited by Roxor
I can't spell

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RavenSpecV

I always wince if an argument about HydroStatic Shock comes up. But it's so wishy-washy with how reliable it is to inflict and deal substantial damage.

An piece of an article from Ballistic Testing Group 
Authors:
Micheal Courtney Ph.D
Amy Courtney Ph.D

"The brain is not the only organ subject to remote pressure wave effects. In a study of handgun injury, Sturtevant found that pressure waves from a bullet impact in the torso can reach the spine. Moreover, a focusing effect from concave surfaces can concentrate the pressure wave on the spinal cord, producing significant injury.
This is consistent with other work showing remote spinal cord injuries from ballistic impacts.
A group at Johns Hopkins University (Roberts et al.) has published both experimental work and finite element modeling showing considerable pressure wave magnitudes in the thoracic cavity produced by handgun projectiles stopped by a Kevlar vest.
For example, an 8 gram projectile at 360 m/s impacting a NIJ level II vest over the sternum can produce an estimated pressure wave level of nearly 2.0 MPa (300 PSI) in the heart and of nearly 1.5 MPa (220 PSI) in 4 the lungs. Impacting over the liver can produce an estimated pressure wave level of 2.0 MPa (300 PSI) in the liver."

There have been many reported wounds in soldiers and civilians where even a hit to the upper thigh/groin area that strikes or severs the femoral artery have not resulted in instant incapacitation or a high level of damage to brain. 

I know HydroStatic Shock is a real thing, but the recording of it's effectiveness in incapacitating a human target is less than stellar.

Edited by RavenSpecV
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Roxor
2 hours ago, RavenSpecV said:

I know HydroStatic Shock is a real thing, but the recording of it's effectiveness in incapacitating a human target is less than stellar.

Yea I can agree with that. Its not like they can do tests on human's like they did on animals. But in close quarters you better believe it. I think every modern military teaches the Controlled Pair and the Mozambique Drill, and that's not because it looks cool.

I just want it so when I take a well aimed shot, its not just an HP decrees.

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Roxor

lol, I also just remembered that in the Action Action Gameplay Trailer we can see the effectiveness of a failure to stop vs AI. 

First kill after you hit play.... its 5 shots but I still think it counts  :)

Assuming the players is still injured from the first encounter, he dies to 1 shot from the guy coming up the stairs at vary close range with a shotgun.  This I like vary much.

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Europoor
7 hours ago, Starlight said:

Thus why I said "enough energy delivery to physically knock somebody down". You can throw all the youtube videos out that you want, a .308-class round doesn't possess enough momentum to knock somebody over.

What you did successfully demonstrate is one of the various the human psychological responses to being shot.

This

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Jagular
8 hours ago, Starlight said:

Thus why I said "enough energy delivery to physically knock somebody down". You can throw all the youtube videos out that you want, a .308-class round doesn't possess enough momentum to knock somebody over.

What you did successfully demonstrate is one of the various the human psychological responses to being shot.

This is true, I missunderstood you. It was wrong of me. I took it as you were emphazising by using the therm 'physically' as in that there is no way a person being shot (whilst not having bullet penetrate) that they  would hit the ground under any circumstances. 

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Sushi

 

On 3/4/2016 at 10:51 AM, Jagular said:

Gimmicky? & how do you suppose one would calculate whether one is dead or not ingame without some form of amount-based damage system?

That dosent really matter now does it? Not in the way you put it anyways. There are to many variables. But what is certain is that you really only need 1 round to kill a person.

Especially if the round hits the torso. Sure, if the person is given immediate medical attention he may survive, but given the nature of this scenario (the game) the person would most probably die.

What this shooter wearing armour? If so, what kind of armour? Makes quite the difference if one was wearing kevlar or steel.
Even if it was kevlar, how spaced were the hits? Dosent really matter if you put 100 bullets into the armor if they are spaced out enough.

And yes, the slug would kill you. Probably not instantly, (few hits result in an instant kill) but the amount of broken bones puncturing your inner organs would put you to sleep very shortly. Again, you may survive if you are treated instantly and there are cases that seem to defy the laws of nature (knives stuck in foreheads but yet surviving for example) but in general, and again, in this scenario, you'd be dead.
Tell me, does this not look like a shattered sternum, with all that comes with it, to you?
16-20.jpg 


(oh and yes, most probably because you have no idea, really)

Out of curiosity, you know if the trauma packs you put behind the kevlar in a soft vest are at all effective against shotgun slugs? Not the ballistic ones, but packs designed purely to absorb blunt trauma, made out of padded materials, polymer or metal.

 

On 3/5/2016 at 0:42 AM, Jagular said:

This is true, I missunderstood you. It was wrong of me. I took it as you were emphazising by using the therm 'physically' as in that there is no way a person being shot (whilst not having bullet penetrate) that they  would hit the ground under any circumstances. 

Psychological reactions to being shot are a huge factor in this, yeah. If a person knows they're gonna be shot, they won't even be pushed back if it hits their plate.

 

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