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jmh1189

Shooting skills

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jmh1189

First off, thank you for putting so much detail into weapons handling. I have a few suggestions for skill progression.

As an avid shooter myself, I think it would bring the realism out in terms of implementing shooting skill.

What i mean by this: When a person first picks up a gun and learns the basics on how to fire, reload, clear malfunctions etc. They are generally slow and clumsy. If you could put as part of the skill tree a part dedicated to weapon experience, that would be amazing.

A few suggestions for progressive shooting skills.

#1: sight picture - For a fresh player, maybe have animation fumble to get the right sight picture when aiming and regaining sight picture after shots. This will keep new players from being able to lay down immense amounts of accurate fire in short periods of time. As the player invests points into their sight picture, they start to be able to aim quicker and pull their gun out of recoil quicker for follow up shots.

 

#2: Weapons malfunction clearing -  for a first time shooter getting a stove pipe or another failure to fire, they generally fumble with their gun for a bit trying to figure it out and clear the malfunction. After points are added to this tree, they become quicker at clearing malfunctions and getting back into the fight. Hell, even safeties on certain guns cause delays because of inexperience.

#3: Reloading speed and method - im sure this has already been covered.

#4: fatigue -  people can't shoot forever. When i go a few months without shooting, i noticed i get fatigued much quicker. I can maybe go through a hundred rounds depending on the trigger weight before my fingers can barely pull the trigger. After a while i can shoot far more. Also, as fatigue becomes an issue, accuracy degrades and the hands start to shake.

 

I think these are all things that can be done and would add a very important aspect of realism and create more immersive game mechanics. These types of details if you want to implement them could bring the entire gun community to this game.

Any thoughts from backers/devs?

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AsOiX

I'm like 90% sure there will be a skill tree and you can progress through it to acquire better handling, accuracy, and all that, over a vast time of using the weapons. I do believe these go away though, maybe when you die, but i'm not sure about that.

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halliday

Q.What kind of RPG elements does the game use?
A.The main RPG elements in the EFT are the inventory system, leveling and character skills upgrade. New levels will be gained by acquiring new experience - combat, looting, healing, exploration, lockpicking etc.

Skill upgrade system in Escape from Tarkov closely resembles that of the The Elder Scrolls, with skills being upgraded by repeating the same action, and player stats affected by learning. For instance:
1 researched item boosts intellect stat 20%;
1 lockpicking without multitool - 1%;
1 lockpicking with multitool - 4%;
200 points of weapon repair - 1%.
Bonuses for upgrading the intellect stat::
Item research speed boost (up to +100%);
Basic lock picking speed boost (up to +100%);
Weapon repairs effectiveness boost (up to +100%).

There is one more thing that is truly unique about our bonuses and skills system. It is not limited by improving the stats of the character - he starts to to use different weapon grips, reload in a more skilled way, use medication smarter than before.
With every skill upgrade the player discovers new tactical opportunities, and the stats maxed to the top give access to the elite skills. Another new feature makes player forget skills that were not used for too long.
The inventory system is represented by a classic slot-based inventory, split into backpack, vest, pockets, weapon equipment slots, etc.

i hope this helps.

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jmh1189

Thanks for the input, it definitely helps. However the final product turns out, it will definitely be a breath of fresh air when compared to the other games in this genre and I look forward to the alpha release.

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N1mbl3

As a shooter myself I'm quite keen to see how this whole skill system affects your shooting. Very exciting stuff!

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Sushi

A slower sight picture or "ADS time" is pretty common in FPS titles, so I wouldn't be surprised to see it here. However, I think fumbling shouldering a rifle is a bit much. Similar concern with say, an earlier suggestion that you can accidentally jam a rifle by short-stroking or reloading it wrong. You're stacking delays on an already slow action and taking agency from the player, which I'm generally not a fan of.

Also, not totally a fan of the fatigue idea either. Maybe of staying in iron sights for a few minutes straight, but just firing and moving in general? I think that would create more of a tendency for stationary play / camping to avoid the side effects of fatigue, which doesn't seem ideal.

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warrioractual1

I'm in favor of making weapon handling as realistic as possible.
If I were to choose, I'd say that weapon sway (and for guns with iron sights not always being perfectly aligned), is the top priority if you don't want people no-scope-one-shotting each other from 1 km away. 

Also, I agree with Sushi. As a soldier I have done contact drills where I had to continuously switch between Low Ready/Medium Ready and High Ready positions with an M16: while I must say that I could almost infinitely hold my gun in Low Ready and Medium Ready positions, holding a rifle in a High Ready position get's enormously tiring after a while up to the point where your muscles just can't hold it anymore.

So: no infinite having-your-gun-shouldered. If you shoulder your rifle too long for a consecutive amount of time, your weapon sway will go crazy and you won't be able to hit poo.

This would all of course be remedied by being able to rest your weapon on a catwalk railing, or some bricks, or sandbags, or a treestump, or whatever, which I am in favor of too.. because you should be able to oneshot someone from 300m: you'd just have to do it right.

Edited by warrioractual1

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N1mbl3

You should get tired from aiming a rifle too long. A basic M4 weighs somewhere between 5 and 7 kg's loaded. Doesn't seem like much but try holding it up for an hour or two and see how tired you get. That's why polymer frames are so popular cause you can shoot longer without fatiguing. 

Shooting itself is also tiring cause you have to keep the right grip, stance, holster, upholster, reload, charge or rack the weapons. Keep doing all that while shooting for an hour and you'll be really tired added in with all the running around plus carrying a pack full of gear

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Skemba
12 minutes ago, N1mbl3 said:

You should get tired from aiming a rifle too long. A basic M4 weighs somewhere between 5 and 7 kg's loaded. Doesn't seem like much but try holding it up for an hour or two and see how tired you get. That's why polymer frames are so popular cause you can shoot longer without fatiguing. 

Shooting itself is also tiring cause you have to keep the right grip, stance, holster, upholster, reload, charge or rack the weapons. Keep doing all that while shooting for an hour and you'll be really tired added in with all the running around plus carrying a pack full of gear

In the pre-alpha footage there was a can of Pacific Tuna in a trunk of a car. I think we're good once we get our protein. :D

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N1mbl3
17 minutes ago, Skemba said:

In the pre-alpha footage there was a can of Pacific Tuna in a trunk of a car. I think we're good once we get our protein. :D

Lol true that:begreat:

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Starlight
On Wednesday, March 02, 2016 at 6:13 AM, Sushi said:

A slower sight picture or "ADS time" is pretty common in FPS titles, so I wouldn't be surprised to see it here. However, I think fumbling shouldering a rifle is a bit much. Similar concern with say, an earlier suggestion that you can accidentally jam a rifle by short-stroking or reloading it wrong. You're stacking delays on an already slow action and taking agency from the player, which I'm generally not a fan of.

Also, not totally a fan of the fatigue idea either. Maybe of staying in iron sights for a few minutes straight, but just firing and moving in general? I think that would create more of a tendency for stationary play / camping to avoid the side effects of fatigue, which doesn't seem ideal.

Given that I'm pretty sure I was the one who threw out the idea in question, figured that I would clarify I did not intend it as specific instances of taking away player agency and effectively saying "your character is retarded, have this punishment that you (the player) did nothing to deserve".

I was originally thinking of short stroking or riding the bolt/slide as examples of 'flavor text' or in-world contextual reasons that could explain/justify why players with low weapon handling skills may experience jams more often than skilled players, given the same physical weapon condition.

As for a fatigue system, if properly implemented it could add an interesting level of tension for players to balance between "get there ASAP" and "be able to actually hit things reliably once I get there".

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Kizumono

IMO, malfunctions in game should not be dependant on characters' stats. If they are, it goes back to punishing the player for having a new (or low level) character. Higher level skills or stats should allow the player to deal with malfs faster. Leveling up should reward the player, not make the game less terrible to play.

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Sushi
On 3/2/2016 at 7:27 AM, N1mbl3 said:

You should get tired from aiming a rifle too long. A basic M4 weighs somewhere between 5 and 7 kg's loaded. Doesn't seem like much but try holding it up for an hour or two and see how tired you get. That's why polymer frames are so popular cause you can shoot longer without fatiguing.

A loaded M4 Carbine weighs 7 pounds 5 ounces, or 3.32 kilograms, according to Global Security. I have no idea where you're pulling those numbers from. There are very few assault rifles that weigh more than 10 lbs loaded.

 

11 hours ago, Starlight said:

Given that I'm pretty sure I was the one who threw out the idea in question, figured that I would clarify I did not intend it as specific instances of taking away player agency and effectively saying "your character is retarded, have this punishment that you (the player) did nothing to deserve".

I was originally thinking of short stroking or riding the bolt/slide as examples of 'flavor text' or in-world contextual reasons that could explain/justify why players with low weapon handling skills may experience jams more often than skilled players, given the same physical weapon condition.

As for a fatigue system, if properly implemented it could add an interesting level of tension for players to balance between "get there ASAP" and "be able to actually hit things reliably once I get there".

Generally your main weapons are going to be assault rifles. Once the thing is loaded, the chance of it malfunctioning essentially falls to how well it's been maintained and random chance. If we're talking about lower-level players being affected while firing loaded AK-74s, there's no basis in reality there.

In the case of malfunctioning due to reloading improperly, that is a realistic factor and happens quite a bit, but I don't think it's truly necessary given an experienced player reloads faster and retains their magazines. It's stacking a disadvantage on another disadvantage. Plus, generally you reload a weapon to clear a malf anyway. I think it could be a feature, but it would be frustrating more than anything.

That, or lower-level players only experience malfunctions more with pistols and manually operated guns like bolt-actions and pump shotguns. Which I guess is "okay" and has basis in reality, but it's still a very specific way to disadvantage lower-level players armed with low-level weapons.

And fatigue? If overdone it turns into more reasons to camp. There's going to be some leniency with it giving the adrenaline is pumping and your PMC is presumably in decent shape and works out.

 

 

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N1mbl3

I was using an old full metal one. Modern one weighs roughly 3 kg's cause of polymer parts

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Kizumono
On 3/4/2016 at 9:09 PM, N1mbl3 said:

I was using an old full metal one. Modern one weighs roughly 3 kg's cause of polymer parts

Errrr, ARs have always had polymer furniture. From prototype AR10s to today's bog standard AR15s. After all, it was designed as a lightweight rifle from the onset.

 

Concerning a fatigue system, I feel like it should only apply to load carriage and sprint times if it's something that'll be in the game. Otherwise, I'd rather not see it associated with shooting skills or in game for that matter.

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