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Bullpup Drop-In Kits

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4 minutes ago, DanExert said:

There are a lot of points in the post you quoted which are either false and/or irrelevant to Tarkov, which we have already discussed.

Thank you for your input though

almost all of it was irrelavent to tarkov but when you have people saying the L85 is one of the most accurate service rifles in use and talking about how bullpups are as accurate or more accurate than traditional rifles they clearly need some educating on the subject

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2 minutes ago, Carl_Wheezer said:

almost all of it was irrelavent to tarkov but when you have people saying the L85 is one of the most accurate service rifles in use and talking about how bullpups are as accurate or more accurate than traditional rifles they clearly need some educating on the subject

What experience have you had with the L85 and other firearms, might I ask?

Ask anyone who has used the L85 at range and I'm confident they'll praise it for it's accuracy. The L86 even more so

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On ‎03‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 12:17 AM, Colonel Twerkins said:

an-94 is confirmed on EFT?

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I have plenty of experience with firearms. I have not shot an L85, and since I am American and L85s arent even imported to the US, i probably never will shoot an L85. But since I also have a lot of experience studying how different guns work, what makes an accurate gun, what makes an ergonomic gun, what makes a reliable gun, and what makes a good gun in general, i can tell you that since the l85 has a similar barrel length, similar bolt and operating system, worse trigger (I don't care what you say a better trigger will make a rifle easier to shoot accurately. If you don't see this as a factor you need to shoot a gun with a good trigger) and worse sight radius, the L85 probably isnt as accurate as an M16 with a cold barrel, but since it has a free float barrel it is probably more accurate with a hot barrel. you could make the case that sight radius doesnt matter when most L85s come with an optic, but you can make the same case for an M16 also. You can make the case that the L85 is easier to shoot once you have mastered the trigger pull, but you can also say since the M16 has a better trigger there is more potential for accuracy once you have mastered the M16.

I don't doubt the L85 is accurate, I am sure it is. But when I hear British dudes praising the L85s accuracy when I know a lot of people in England don't get a lot of experience with different firearms because of the laws over their, it doesn't make sense because they don't have experience with many others guns to compare them with. Its like saying non rifled blackpowder rifles are some of the best deer hunting weapons around because you have spent your life shooting bows, but you don't know that most hunters have been using Remington 700s for decades.

And i feel like i should mention, tactical fister said a lot a stupid things in this thread, but at least he understood that bullpups arent the end all be all and final evolution of service rifles and saw the downsides they have. and he definitely exaggerated thje inaccuracy of bullpups as well.

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1 hour ago, DanExert said:

What experience have you had with the L85 and other firearms, might I ask?

Ask anyone who has used the L85 at range and I'm confident they'll praise it for it's accuracy. The L86 even more so

To be fair, That's really any Western 5.56 rifle. Not to mention that the vast majority of what determines 'Accuracy' comes down to the ammunition being used and the Shooter's skill. 

 

17 minutes ago, Carl_Wheezer said:

I have plenty of experience with firearms. I have not shot an L85, and since I am American and L85s arent even imported to the US, i probably never will shoot an L85. But since I also have a lot of experience studying how different guns work, what makes an accurate gun, what makes an ergonomic gun, what makes a reliable gun, and what makes a good gun in general, i can tell you that since the l85 has a similar barrel length, similar bolt and operating system, worse trigger (I don't care what you say a better trigger will make a rifle easier to shoot accurately. If you don't see this as a factor you need to shoot a gun with a good trigger) and worse sight radius, the L85 probably isnt as accurate as an M16 with a cold barrel, but since it has a free float barrel it is probably more accurate with a hot barrel. you could make the case that sight radius doesnt matter when most L85s come with an optic, but you can make the same case for an M16 also. You can make the case that the L85 is easier to shoot once you have mastered the trigger pull, but you can also say since the M16 has a better trigger there is more potential for accuracy once you have mastered the M16.

I don't doubt the L85 is accurate, I am sure it is. But when I hear British dudes praising the L85s accuracy when I know a lot of people in England don't get a lot of experience with different firearms because of the laws over their, it doesn't make sense because they don't have experience with many others guns to compare them with. Its like saying non rifled blackpowder rifles are some of the best deer hunting weapons around because you have spent your life shooting bows, but you don't know that most hunters have been using Remington 700s for decades.

And i feel like i should mention, tactical fister said a lot a stupid things in this thread, but at least he understood that bullpups arent the end all be all and final evolution of service rifles and saw the downsides they have. and he definitely exaggerated thje inaccuracy of bullpups as well.

I have a niche for saying stupid things when Fetish weapons are involved. 

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2 minutes ago, Tactical_Fister said:

To be fair, That's really any Western 5.56 rifle. Not to mention that the vast majority of what determines 'Accuracy' comes down to the ammunition being used and the Shooter's skill. 

 

I have a niche for saying stupid things when Fetish weapons are involved. 

dont we all

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3 minutes ago, Carl_Wheezer said:

...but at least he understood that bullpups arent the end all be all and final evolution of service rifles and saw the downsides they have. and he definitely exaggerated thje inaccuracy of bullpups as well.

I read your whole post, just didn't want to quote the whole thing to save space.

Firstly, no one (as far as I can remember without scrolling back up) was saying bullpups were overall superior. The argument that created this whole thing was caused by our friends here stating bullpups were incredibly inferior, and anyone who disagreed 'didn't have a brain', to which those of us with experience handling such weapons replied with our personal experiences. 

The argument here wasn't 'A is better than B' until the carbine boys came along with their superiority complex. Additionally, many rifles are in fact more accurate than the guy behind it, which is why they are regularly tested in fixed rigs to get good, reliable data. If I can shoot better with my L85 than a US dude can with his M4, does that make the L85 better? Of course not.

The majority of Brits who have handled the L85 are of military background, who obviously are not subject to UK gun laws (for the sake of our discussion at least) due to having access to a multitude of NATO weaponry - be it during training, on operational tour or even weapon expos/demo range days etc. So your argument for familiarity works both ways. That said, us Brits have both the L85 and L129 in our sections now, and so have day to day experience on both platforms, whereas already mentioned bullpups don't see much service in the US forces (if at all?).

The funny thing is, the majority of people bashing the bullpup design are from the US and have very little experience with them anyway. Of course, we always believe that which we are more familiar with is 'better', which is just human nature. But to call a particular design straight up trash because of what they have read or heard is absurd. 

Bullpups have a place in the real world and most definitely have a place in Tarkov, and I most certainly look forward to their implementation (and the many 'flaws' that will bring lol).

24 minutes ago, jektporkins said:

@DanExert and @Tactical_Fister

Thanks for the actually interesting informative discussion on the topic. It is good to see opposing points, both with definite merit. 

 

It's all good :) it's nice to actually talk guns with people who have at least some (if not limited) knowledge ;) 

Besides, gun pr0n is what attracted many of us to Tarkov in the first place, did it not?

4 minutes ago, Tactical_Fister said:

To be fair, That's really any Western 5.56 rifle. Not to mention that the vast majority of what determines 'Accuracy' comes down to the ammunition being used and the Shooter's skill.

This is true, I addressed the second part of this post in mine also!

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I'm not sure anyone claimed the L85 was more accurate than *insert any gun here*, though i did skim read a lot.

i think the idea that AR's are better than Bullpups, or bullpups are better than AR's is a bit pointless. X gun will be better than Y gun at certain things. And that will make one of those guns better under z circumstances.

For the record, i've fired none of them (it's hard to do being an aussie)! Can't we all get along? Variety in this game would be great! 

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6 minutes ago, DanExert said:

It's all good :) it's nice to actually talk guns with people who have at least some (if not limited) knowledge ;) 

Besides, gun pr0n is what attracted many of us to Tarkov in the first place, did it not?

Yes it was a big draw factor haha! My knowledge is limited but interest in it is huge haha. 

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1 minute ago, jektporkins said:

I'm not sure anyone claimed the L85 was more accurate than *insert any gun here*, though i did skim read a lot.

i think the idea that AR's are better than Bullpups, or bullpups are better than AR's is a bit pointless. X gun will be better than Y gun at certain things. And that will make one of those guns better under z circumstances.

For the record, i've fired none of them (it's hard to do being an aussie)! Can't we all get along? Variety in this game would be great! 

You're absolutely right, my main efforts have been simply defending bullpups as a viable, effective design, using personal experience with varying platforms as a base of knowledge.

Variety is the spice of life after all, and I think all parties involved here would agree that more weapons = more variety = better game experience overall :) 

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1 minute ago, jektporkins said:

I'm not sure anyone claimed the L85 was more accurate than *insert any gun here*, though i did skim read a lot.

i think the idea that AR's are better than Bullpups, or bullpups are better than AR's is a bit pointless. X gun will be better than Y gun at certain things. And that will make one of those guns better under z circumstances.

For the record, i've fired none of them (it's hard to do being an aussie)! Can't we all get along? Variety in this game would be great! 

My main compliant is how many people tend to think that Bullpup's are the end-all, be-all due to their popularity in media. Certain Firearms will be better at certain things. My experiences with Bullpup's are fairly limited. Handled a TAR-21 for a few Three Gun Matches and an FN2000 which I only shot a few hundred rounds through before I sold it (ejecting from the front seemed like a major reliability hazard to me).  So the fast majority of my experience is on the AR-15 and AK platform. cough AR master race. 

 

6 minutes ago, DanExert said:

Isnip

One important thing to note actually, Is the USEC have an AR Systems skill, which obviously is incredibly open to interpretation, But I'd assume based on that, That USEC, Being a Western PMC composed primarily (of what I've been able to tell) American and British (Terra Group is UK based) Mercs. Who, based on availability of the platform and general market saturation would likely train on AR platforms. But that's just speculation on my part. 

1 minute ago, DanExert said:

You're absolutely right, my main efforts have been simply defending bullpups as a viable, effective design, using personal experience with varying platforms as a base of knowledge.

Variety is the spice of life after all, and I think all parties involved here would agree that more weapons = more variety = better game experience overall :) 

Can't argue with the Human body and engineering principles B|

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1 minute ago, Tactical_Fister said:

My main compliant is how many people tend to think that Bullpup's are the end-all, be-all due to their popularity in media.

I also dislike the blind one eyed comments as well so cannot fault you there. I think some people are just after an argument. 

I have next to no experience with rifles so this is all interesting to me! keep it up.

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7 minutes ago, Tactical_Fister said:

My main compliant is how many people tend to think that Bullpup's are the end-all, be-all due to their popularity in media.

Fundamentalism isn't the way to beat fundamentalism my friend ;) 

8 minutes ago, Tactical_Fister said:

One important thing to note actually, Is the USEC have an AR Systems skill, which obviously is incredibly open to interpretation, But I'd assume based on that, That USEC, Being a Western PMC composed primarily (of what I've been able to tell) American and British (Terra Group is UK based) Mercs. Who, based on availability of the platform and general market saturation would likely train on AR platforms. But that's just speculation on my part. 

I agree, but let's not forget that the skills are being adjusted and added to all the time. Perhaps there will be a universal 'Bullpup Systems' skill, for both USEC and BEAR, added in the future! Don't the BEARs also have an 'AK Systems' skill also? These skills might be renamed later on to represent more accurately the associated weapon groups, once more manufacturers/platforms are introduced.

9 minutes ago, Tactical_Fister said:

Can't argue with the Human body and engineering principles

Haha tell that to bees who defy the laws of physics every summer ;) 

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1 minute ago, DanExert said:

I read your whole post, just didn't want to quote the whole thing to save space.

So the demo range days argument can still be made with US soldiers trying out L85 rifles.

There are plenty of bullpups for private sale in the US. Bushmaster M17 (that one is rare though) Tavor 21, Tavor X95, AUG and its variants, the various stock kits, the FN F2000 (although not many of those are here). Being in Commiefornia, you don't see them here that often, but they are somewhat popular in the rest of the free states. People like to use bullpups in competition shooting, especially Tavors. It's not like Americans dont get experience with bullpups. 

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1 minute ago, Carl_Wheezer said:

So the demo range days argument can still be made with US soldiers trying out L85 rifles.

There are plenty of bullpups for private sale in the US. Bushmaster M17 (that one is rare though) Tavor 21, Tavor X95, AUG and its variants, the various stock kits, the FN F2000 (although not many of those are here). Being in Commiefornia, you don't see them here that often, but they are somewhat popular in the rest of the free states. People like to use bullpups in competition shooting, especially Tavors. It's not like Americans dont get experience with bullpups. 

Yeah of course, I was just using these events as examples. Remember I'm not trying to say 'A is better than B'

That's an interesting point about the competition shooters, what is it they like about the Tavor? 

Also about my generalisation of guys from the US having little experience with bullpups, that is mainly due to my many encounters with people who believe what they're familiar with is the best and refuse to see any good in anything other than 'what they're used to'. It probably wasn't a fair statement to make, just one from personal experience. 

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11 minutes ago, DanExert said:

Yeah of course, I was just using these events as examples. Remember I'm not trying to say 'A is better than B'

That's an interesting point about the competition shooters, what is it they like about the Tavor? 

Also about my generalisation of guys from the US having little experience with bullpups, that is mainly due to my many encounters with people who believe what they're familiar with is the best and refuse to see any good in anything other than 'what they're used to'. It probably wasn't a fair statement to make, just one from personal experience. 

well when i mention competition i mean 2 gun and 3 gun action matches where engagement distances are usually pretty close and speed is key so i think tavors would be popular for that because even with a non regulated barrel they are still some of the shortest rifles out there. i know in 2 gun a lot of courses will have walls and cover that you need maneuver around so i think the short barrel would make them really good for that since you dont need super accuracy in those types of competitions anyway. one thing i don't understand is since the tavor 21s magazine release is in an awkard spot that wouldnt really lead to super good times but im sure those competition guys find a way to turn it into an advantage somehow

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7 hours ago, Tactical_Fister said:

Well we all know it's about that CZ-75B Master Race :D

20151229_182451.jpg

It' s a very nice pistol, my friend is about to get one i' ll let you know about it

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1 hour ago, Tactical_Fister said:

My main compliant is how many people tend to think that Bullpup's are the end-all, be-all due to their popularity in media. Certain Firearms will be better at certain things. My experiences with Bullpup's are fairly limited. Handled a TAR-21 for a few Three Gun Matches and an FN2000 which I only shot a few hundred rounds through before I sold it (ejecting from the front seemed like a major reliability hazard to me).  So the fast majority of my experience is on the AR-15 and AK platform. cough AR master race.

And that' s when it comes to personnal preferences, to be honnest, weapons like the Famas can fell very hazadous at times, it' s no where near an AKM, but i like it anyway. I' ve seen quite a bunch of Famas because i' m living in France, but of course, the popularity of bullpups is not the same in media/US. I do think it depends on the country you are living into tho.

 

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3 hours ago, Carl_Wheezer said:

almost all of it was irrelavent to tarkov but when you have people saying the L85 is one of the most accurate service rifles in use and talking about how bullpups are as accurate or more accurate than traditional rifles they clearly need some educating on the subject

I do think a good bullpup can be as good as a standard rifle. If you think i was the one saying that "saying the L85 is one of the most accurate service rifles in use", as i stated about 3 times : The l85 is not a great weapon, but variant were made, it improves the weapon and makes it worth for people enjoying the L85' s design.

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1 hour ago, Carl_Wheezer said:

well when i mention competition i mean 2 gun and 3 gun action matches where engagement distances are usually pretty close and speed is key so i think tavors would be popular for that because even with a non regulated barrel they are still some of the shortest rifles out there. i know in 2 gun a lot of courses will have walls and cover that you need maneuver around so i think the short barrel would make them really good for that since you dont need super accuracy in those types of competitions anyway. one thing i don't understand is since the tavor 21s magazine release is in an awkard spot that wouldnt really lead to super good times but im sure those competition guys find a way to turn it into an advantage somehow

Ok, normally I don't get too bad about people claiming things and then saying they "think" that's the case if they're inexperienced, but the TAVOR is popular as a competition gun?

As someone who does shoot competitively in both Pistol and 2 Gun in IPDA and is ranked Masters division in USPSA/IPSC, what in god's name are you talking about? almost no one uses the Tavor in the major competitive circuits

Hell, take a look at what the top tier all use in Grand Master's division, (Hint, It's pretty much all extremely high end AR-15 or the occasional AK clone with about a thousand mods mixed in, Kirsten Joy Weiss was noteworthy for competing with a SCAR-16 once because it was "something not an AR-15 or AK.")

Edited by KhandE
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20 minutes ago, KhandE said:

Ok, normally I don't get too bad about people claiming things and then saying they "think" that's the case if they're inexperienced, but the TAVOR is popular as a competition gun?

As someone who does shoot competitively in both Pistol and 2 Gun in IPDA and is ranked Masters division in USPSA/IPSC, what in god's name are you talking about? almost no one uses the Tavor in the major competitive circuits

Hell, take a look at what the top tier all use in Grand Master's division, (Hint, It's pretty much all extremely high end AR-15 or the occasional AK clone with about a thousand mods mixed in, Kirsten Joy Weiss was noteworthy for competing with a SCAR-16 once because it was "something not an AR-15 or AK.")

I have seen plenty of dudes using tavors in competition yes, but you are talking about actual good people. I dont watch 2 gun matches where some of the most expensive equipment is used, i have only seen regular guys who do 2 and 3 gun for fun. 

And when i mean popular i mean "popular for something that isnt an ar or ak" which is something i should have said.

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5 hours ago, KhandE said:

Ok, normally I don't get too bad about people claiming things and then saying they "think" that's the case if they're inexperienced, but the TAVOR is popular as a competition gun?

As someone who does shoot competitively in both Pistol and 2 Gun in IPDA and is ranked Masters division in USPSA/IPSC, what in god's name are you talking about? almost no one uses the Tavor in the major competitive circuits

Hell, take a look at what the top tier all use in Grand Master's division, (Hint, It's pretty much all extremely high end AR-15 or the occasional AK clone with about a thousand mods mixed in, Kirsten Joy Weiss was noteworthy for competing with a SCAR-16 once because it was "something not an AR-15 or AK.")

What are you using yourself ? AR-15 or AK ? (Or Tavor :D )

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