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Bullpup Drop-In Kits

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16 minutes ago, Tactical_Fister said:

Although I physically cringe at the sight of this. Since they're eventually adding LMG's, And are eventually likely to add Bullpup's at somepoint. Why not.

 

DcsHjN0hlxM.jpg

8/8 would definitely use in raid to trigger @Tactical_Fister;) 

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8 hours ago, PIG-Mathieu said:

What are you using yourself ? AR-15 or AK ? (Or Tavor :D )

LMT SLK8 of course. (AR-15)

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On ‎1‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 11:02 PM, Tactical_Fister said:

 

 

Going to respond to all of you at once, Since y'all are basically saying the same thing. And this is going to be a big ole wall of text so apologies on that. 

First, Western Service Rifles generally speaking are for the most part all accurate. Anything past 300m is gravy when looking at a realistic engagement scenario.

Imma lay out a list of issues with Bullpups, Only have physical experience with two (TAR-21 and FN2000). So there is going to be some Copy-Paste on this. But it gets the point across.

Accuracy

Bullpup rifles typically have a higher sight offset, or "height over bore." For example, the IWI Tavor's sights are almost 4 inches over the bore, compared to the AR-15, which is as low as 2.5 inches. This may not be a factor for long-range shooters, but when considering a close-quarters tactical rifle for law enforcement or home defense purposes, users may find themselves needing to compensate for that drastic height over bore for close-up shots. Additionally, shooting from a structure or through a portal such as a window will require more care using a bullpup firearm as the muzzle must be clear of the structure to ensure clear shot placement. Just because you can see the target doesn’t mean your bullet is going to strike it.  

 

Trigger Pull
Standard rifle: Conventional rifles have perfected trigger mechanisms over the years. By being located immediately next to the action, there are few problems that occur with the triggers.           

Bullpup: Bullpups utilize trigger linkages between the forward trigger mechanism and the action in the back of the rifle. Like anything mechanical, extra parts are exposed to additional stresses and are sometimes cited as weaknesses of the platform.

Bullpup designs are mechanically more complex, requiring a long trigger linkage, and control system linkages. This seriously degrades both control feel, and reliability, and increases bulk and weight (there may be engineering solutions to this problem).

 

Weight Distribution: 

Nutshell, Standard configuration weight is centered more toward the front, which makes recoil from successive shots less of an issue, Where as on a bullpup with weight centered at the rear makes recoil more difficult to control. (Yes training alleviates this to an extent but not all of it) 

Safety 

If a bullpup has a catastrophic failure, instead of the explosion being six or eight inches in front of your eyes, it's right at your eyesocket, or touching your cheekbone or ear. The only good thing is, if the bolt flys back, it doesn't end up in your eye socket. 

Most bullpups also eject hot brass, and vent hot gasses in the vicinity of your eyes and ears (some eject downward or forward, which is a better solution for a bullpup, if it's engineered properly).

Reloading:

Mag changes on most bullpups are slower (sometimes much slower) because they require more repositioning, that positioning can be awkward, and can be difficult to see (if necessary) without fully dismounting the rifle. Not to mention reloading from the prone with a bullpup is immensely more difficult than with a conventional rifle 

A conventional rifle allows you to see your mag changes, and is more easily maneuvered with your dominant hand, which makes mag changes easier in general.

More importantly a human being can naturally bring their hands together in the dark. As a basic design guideline, magwells should either be in your dominant hand, or just in front of it; because it is far more difficult to manipulate anything dexterously that is located behind your dominant hand.

 

Because of the positioning of the magazine (usually the part of a gun extending lowest) close to your shoulder when the weapon is mounted, bullpups can be difficult to fire while prone (though this is common with some other rifle designs as well). 

Note in the pictures below, the magazine is by far the lowest point of the rifle; and being located behind the dominant hand and close to your shoulder; when you drop prone it will tend to strike the ground forcing the muzzle downward. 

This can also cause problems with mags being warped, ripped out of the magwell, having the baseplate broken off, or the rifle itself being ripped out of the users hand when hitting the deck. 

A conventional rifle with a long magazine can have issues with dropping prone as well, but because the mag is positioned forward of the dominant hand, instead of forcing the muzzle down, it will tend to force the muzzle up; and though it's not advisable to use the magazine as a monopod, it's possible. With a bullpup, it isn't.

 

Bullpups are naturally balanced in a non-instinctive way. 

This is really the biggest problem, and the one that is hardest to solve with engineering.

The balance point on most bullpups is in between your hand and your shoulder when mounted, which is unnatural. We have a natural tendency to try to balance things between our hands, not between our hand and shoulder.

The only way to correct this is to put heavy things in front of your dominant hand, or to make the weapon short and light enough that this won't make a difference (and even then it will still be more awkward and less instinctive to point; but several modern bullpups have taken the second approach).

This balance will tend to make a bullpup tend to shift its butt under recoil, unless it is very tightly mounted to your shoulder; particularly during rapid fire. This tendency is somewhat countered by the position of your support hand so far forward on the barrel,  by the fact that the overall leverage moment of the muzzle is lower (the muzzle isn't as far from either your shoulder, or your dominant hand), and by the fact that most bullpups have straightline recoil.

A conventional rifle is balanced in between your dominant and support hands, and there are good reasons for that. A human being naturally handles things that balance in the palm, or in front of your dominant hand, better, because we naturally want to balance things between our hands. 

Under recoil, the muzzle of a conventional rifle rises, but just from gravity will fall into you support hand again without actually holding or pulling it down, because the fulcrum of the lever is in your dominant hand, and the balance point is in front of the fulcrum. 


Main article used as reference. 

https://anarchangel.blogspot.com/2005/03/why-bullpups-are-persistently-bad-idea.html

A lot of the things you listed seem like they can be fixed by an actual good shooter, not just by someone who is good with weapon X. Your argument for accuracy, is not about it's true accuracy, it's about sight placement. I feel like your argument should have been "If you want a gun that is more challenging to wield, and shoot, then fine". Also, you haven't backed up your dependability claim.

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BUBBA NOOOOOOO

r/weekendgunnit

But seriously. Instead of crappy bullpup converts, dedicated bullpups with popular appeal like the Tavor, AUG, even Kel-Tec's RFB would be much better additions.

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Adding new bullpup version of current rifles already in the game is a great idea. However, they should add other bullpup guns such as the L85A2, FAMAS, or FN F2000 before the converted versions of others.

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On 1/4/2018 at 5:38 AM, PIG-Mathieu said:

What are you using yourself ? AR-15 or AK ? (Or Tavor :D )

On 1/4/2018 at 7:35 AM, Tactical_Fister said:

We all already know the answer to this :D

 

AR Master Race

On 1/4/2018 at 1:52 PM, KhandE said:

LMT SLK8 of course. (AR-15)

 

Very unexpected. /s :betoung:

 

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On 03/01/2018 at 10:11 AM, DaBombgamer said:

I'm personally a fan of the Styer AUG, and the Barrett M95. (yes, that huge thing that shoots a .50cal, is a bullpup.)

I think that Bullpups would be a great implementation into tarkov.

the barret M95 would be so fun to use on woods and customs

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On 11/12/2017 at 7:35 AM, Tactical_Fister said:

If people want to deal with the atrocious decrease in accuracy and poor design that goes with bullpups sure. 

obviously they would primarily be used in factory because u don't need accuracy when the person you are trying to kill is like 2m away

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On 01/02/2018 at 6:23 AM, Specs78 said:

Adding new bullpup version of current rifles already in the game is a great idea. However, they should add other bullpup guns such as the L85A2, FAMAS, or FN F2000 before the converted versions of others.

Just about to post basically this (even with a suggestion about the F2000). 

While they aren't perfect I would have thought a short bullpup would have been perfect for inside places (like factory) where larger weapons have issues of fitting in the places you want to fire from. A designed from scratch bullpup rather than a mod kit would be preferred for me. (If it takes the same rounds as some of the other weapons that would be even better). 

Its all about options, you dont HAVE to use every gun in the game.. 

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On 1/3/2018 at 7:02 AM, Tactical_Fister said:

 

 

Going to respond to all of you at once, Since y'all are basically saying the same thing. And this is going to be a big ole wall of text so apologies on that. 

First, Western Service Rifles generally speaking are for the most part all accurate. Anything past 300m is gravy when looking at a realistic engagement scenario.

Imma lay out a list of issues with Bullpups, Only have physical experience with two (TAR-21 and FN2000). So there is going to be some Copy-Paste on this. But it gets the point across.

Accuracy

Bullpup rifles typically have a higher sight offset, or "height over bore." For example, the IWI Tavor's sights are almost 4 inches over the bore, compared to the AR-15, which is as low as 2.5 inches. This may not be a factor for long-range shooters, but when considering a close-quarters tactical rifle for law enforcement or home defense purposes, users may find themselves needing to compensate for that drastic height over bore for close-up shots. Additionally, shooting from a structure or through a portal such as a window will require more care using a bullpup firearm as the muzzle must be clear of the structure to ensure clear shot placement. Just because you can see the target doesn’t mean your bullet is going to strike it.  

 

Trigger Pull
Standard rifle: Conventional rifles have perfected trigger mechanisms over the years. By being located immediately next to the action, there are few problems that occur with the triggers.           

Bullpup: Bullpups utilize trigger linkages between the forward trigger mechanism and the action in the back of the rifle. Like anything mechanical, extra parts are exposed to additional stresses and are sometimes cited as weaknesses of the platform.

Bullpup designs are mechanically more complex, requiring a long trigger linkage, and control system linkages. This seriously degrades both control feel, and reliability, and increases bulk and weight (there may be engineering solutions to this problem).

 

Weight Distribution: 

Nutshell, Standard configuration weight is centered more toward the front, which makes recoil from successive shots less of an issue, Where as on a bullpup with weight centered at the rear makes recoil more difficult to control. (Yes training alleviates this to an extent but not all of it) 

Safety 

If a bullpup has a catastrophic failure, instead of the explosion being six or eight inches in front of your eyes, it's right at your eyesocket, or touching your cheekbone or ear. The only good thing is, if the bolt flys back, it doesn't end up in your eye socket. 

Most bullpups also eject hot brass, and vent hot gasses in the vicinity of your eyes and ears (some eject downward or forward, which is a better solution for a bullpup, if it's engineered properly).

Reloading:

Mag changes on most bullpups are slower (sometimes much slower) because they require more repositioning, that positioning can be awkward, and can be difficult to see (if necessary) without fully dismounting the rifle. Not to mention reloading from the prone with a bullpup is immensely more difficult than with a conventional rifle 

A conventional rifle allows you to see your mag changes, and is more easily maneuvered with your dominant hand, which makes mag changes easier in general.

More importantly a human being can naturally bring their hands together in the dark. As a basic design guideline, magwells should either be in your dominant hand, or just in front of it; because it is far more difficult to manipulate anything dexterously that is located behind your dominant hand.

 

Because of the positioning of the magazine (usually the part of a gun extending lowest) close to your shoulder when the weapon is mounted, bullpups can be difficult to fire while prone (though this is common with some other rifle designs as well). 

Note in the pictures below, the magazine is by far the lowest point of the rifle; and being located behind the dominant hand and close to your shoulder; when you drop prone it will tend to strike the ground forcing the muzzle downward. 

This can also cause problems with mags being warped, ripped out of the magwell, having the baseplate broken off, or the rifle itself being ripped out of the users hand when hitting the deck. 

A conventional rifle with a long magazine can have issues with dropping prone as well, but because the mag is positioned forward of the dominant hand, instead of forcing the muzzle down, it will tend to force the muzzle up; and though it's not advisable to use the magazine as a monopod, it's possible. With a bullpup, it isn't.

 

Bullpups are naturally balanced in a non-instinctive way. 

This is really the biggest problem, and the one that is hardest to solve with engineering.

The balance point on most bullpups is in between your hand and your shoulder when mounted, which is unnatural. We have a natural tendency to try to balance things between our hands, not between our hand and shoulder.

The only way to correct this is to put heavy things in front of your dominant hand, or to make the weapon short and light enough that this won't make a difference (and even then it will still be more awkward and less instinctive to point; but several modern bullpups have taken the second approach).

This balance will tend to make a bullpup tend to shift its butt under recoil, unless it is very tightly mounted to your shoulder; particularly during rapid fire. This tendency is somewhat countered by the position of your support hand so far forward on the barrel,  by the fact that the overall leverage moment of the muzzle is lower (the muzzle isn't as far from either your shoulder, or your dominant hand), and by the fact that most bullpups have straightline recoil.

A conventional rifle is balanced in between your dominant and support hands, and there are good reasons for that. A human being naturally handles things that balance in the palm, or in front of your dominant hand, better, because we naturally want to balance things between our hands. 

Under recoil, the muzzle of a conventional rifle rises, but just from gravity will fall into you support hand again without actually holding or pulling it down, because the fulcrum of the lever is in your dominant hand, and the balance point is in front of the fulcrum. 


Main article used as reference. 

https://anarchangel.blogspot.com/2005/03/why-bullpups-are-persistently-bad-idea.html


Well at least you can read but have you ever touched one ????


Longer barrels mean more  speed for the projectile and stability... also they get hotter harder ...

Compact design unlike trying to handle a full length m16 you can get your hands on an L85A3 and have it on the size of an M4a1

Now about your catastrophic explosion ... either way mate you are wearing a plate armor and either way you are getting hurt... if the boom is strong enough to destroy the body of the gun you are hurt either way.............. Also such catastrophic failures never happen ..... 

Now about reloading and  you got a point it slower but you never do tactical reloads on the field .... its not a 3 gun competition ..... 

Bore axis ... Well 4 inches .... 10cm ???? wich bullpup the old Aug ??? because the l85 and the tavor never had a 4inc distance form bore to sights ... also the old style m4 sights and m16 have a huge bore axis distance ....... 

 

 

Anyways my point is simple if you train with it its as good as anything 

US guys like their m4s 

Brits love their L85A2 and A3s .. (Dont mention the A1 we all know it was bad) 

The Israelies lvoe their Tavors and the 

Aussies AUgs 

ETC ETC 

 

 

Training is the key word.... Train Train Train and it doesn't matter if its an m4 or a tavor or an ak or whatever .....  There are Ruskie special forces that wont trade their AKM for anything .... does that mean that their AKM are the best ? no its what they know and trained to use ... 

 

 

The point is bullpup rifles are real and the work just fine. If anything they have better accuracy than most carbines like the m4 and they also have better heat mitigation due to their longer barrels ... 











 

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