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On Hatchetlings & Response


carthagelost

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carthagelost

I know there have been a ton of debates on whether or not to nerf them, and what should be done. IMO, they are a symptom of the game at the current moment and they can be limited by focusing on why people do this.

  • Quest Items - With one each typically spawning on each map in a specific place, you have to be quick to get there. Most people can't really afford to go slow and careful because the item will likely be gone. And if you go too fast, you are likely to not pay attention and get killed. Which means the easiest/least risky way to get to them is to go in with a melee to get there. The solution would obviously make the quest item spawn for each individual PMC who has taken the quest, so there is no need to rush to the locations. This is less of a problem with Fort/Kiver quests, as you kinda are required to go in geared, even for Scavs. Even if you require people to take weapons with them, people can always just put the pistol they take in their alpha/secure container and run for it.
    • Solution - Make quest items spawn for each individual PMC. It would make no sense to hatchet rush, because its always going to be there and you can take your time. With other quests, you can buy them and its just general loot, so you can't reliably hatchet run them.
  • Keys - Because of the unpredictable nature of keys spawning, and some them spawning in very specific places, if your goal is to get keys, the best way to do it is with melee only. Whether you are searching lockers or not. Keys are important for quests and getting decent loot. 
    • Solution - Make the likelihood of keys spawning high not isolated to filing cabinets, but across all loot boxes, with some having the increased spawn chance and others not (certain jackets, not others, etc. Nowhere specific to run to). Obviously you would have to tweak loot tables and make sure keys spawned properly/enough so that people would find them often and they wouldn't be extremely rare. This would force players to loot everything, and going in with a hatchet and rushing locations would no longer be feasible. For keys that spawn in specific places, like in a hand on a dead scav/on the ground/on a desk, make these keys spawn only for specific players in the match (keep spawn rates the same, but only have them appear to a certain player/players on the map). For example, if there are 5 bears and 5 USEC players, the key would only spawn in game for 2 of them (the general spawn chance of the key would remain the same). This way, you'd never know if the key would be spawned for you. It'd make hatchet running for fixed keys extremely tedious and pointless, since you'd never know if it would have spawned for you specifically or you just missed it due to chance. 
  • Server Problems/Solid Snake Style - We've all been there. Someone is hatchet running and you unload round after round in him and he one-shots you, and you find out that you didn't hit him at all. Or you see the animation and you die from him across the room. Or the server disconnects you and you lose all your gear. People are nervous about bringing decent things into matches because of this. They would rather sneak up on some Scav and gear up with that by hitting him in the head or some PMC that isn't paying attention. I also call this 'Solid Snake Style', as in acquiring all gear on mission. Though this is more of a playstyle choice than a specific problem.
    • Solution - We will only see this reduced upon improvement to server stability, desync, optimization and lag issues. Which might be a long time coming. Which is ok, this is a beta after all. It means this will eventually mitigate hatchet runners. As for the play-style, if people REALLY are that sore about the 'Solid Snake, acquire all gear on mission' thing, melee damage could be nerfed or bullet damage massively increased at melee range. Or a 'stopping power' mechanic, where if someone is sprinting at you, getting hit at a close distance forces you to slow down. Or melee damage being temporarily nerfed because of server issues and then buffed once this is resolved. This is probably going to take awhile to figure out.
  • Money/Rare Items - This is the toughest one. The reasons for this are varied. Some people just are very attached to gear, others are just poor and others just want to play Solid Snake, as I mentioned above. Others lost a lot of their good gear and don't want to use mediocre things. Others still just want to sell things to level up traders. Its impossible to say all the reasons. Many want to nerf alpha/gamma containers but this is an extreme option that will only make a punishing game more punishing, and I don't think its warranted. This will also turn off others to the game, which makes it an untenable solution. Those containers are there to make it so you can escape with valuable, barter items, keys and things like that. It also seems to stem from jealousy from those with bigger containers and spite. Say what you will, but people are extremely bitter over this issue. Some say scav is enough, but it really isn't. Scav on Scav violence is still too excessive and with the timer being 30 minutes, it really is not a feasible way to come back. People also aren't going to wait for their stash to dwindle enough for care packages. The thing is also a rush towards rare, fixed item locations. 
    • Solution - Here is possibly the most difficult part. So I'll separate it into long-term and short-term solutions
      • Long-Term - With the update of the hideout, apparently there will be ways to make money in-between raids with bitcoin mining or other activities. Having extra cash coming in, albiet slowly, will discourage running with hatchets. Obviously, this is a long time away. There may be other hideout mechanics that will make you able to get money as well. Maybe even certain small side quests, such as acquiring an item on a map, which would be different for everyone, would provide money and bonuses. For rare items, dynamic, multiple spawn locations will provide disincentives to hatchet run. Or do the thing I mentioned earlier (only spawning for specific PMCs with their normal spawn chance, and not for the majority of others).
      • Short-Term - Make cheap guns available, cheaper than 7k. They don't have to be strong, maybe even prone to jamming, accuracy problems, things like that. Since the guns would be extremely cheap, it'd be better and more advantageous to take a cheap gun you don't care about losing than just simply a hatchet. They'd still be able to kill hatchetlings easily, but have a harder time with PMCs and armed Scavs. But it wouldn't be worth it to hatchet run when you can just spawn with a cheap weapon. And maybe even make them moderately customizable, to give players with little money more incentive to bring something a little cool.

In the end, Hatcheters are a symptom of several issues. I don't feel anyone should be punished for playing the game a certain way, as this style has arisen due to several ways things are right now. If people want to hatchet, they should be able to. But if you resolve a lot of these issues, they will become much much less common because there simply any isn't incentive to do so. The ideal is to eliminate the need for hatchet running, not to punish the style itself. I feel in communities we rush too much to punish, rather than incentivize. In the end, this is all about economics, since this is what the game is all about. In economics, incentives work way better than punishment. You also have to consider solutions that won't actually penalize other plays (like nerfing secure containers). Because if you penalize hatchet running, people will simply start running with a cheap pistol with little to no ammo. Or just start with one and stash it in an alpha. Then people will complain about this and the cycle would continue and playstyles becoming needlessly restrictive while the reasons for hatchet running remain. By addressing the issues as to why people hatchet run, you'll see far far less of it. 

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georgeadam

For there to be winners in EFT, there are losers. The losers end up doing hatchet runs more regularly to afford to take in guns. 
Punish those hatchetlings more (by making their lives harder) then they leave the game. 
Less players = longer queues, emptier games and all round boredom. 

TLDR: Quit picking on the poor hatchlings you bully! 

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Thot_Patroller
50 minutes ago, georgeadam said:

For there to be winners in EFT, there are losers. The losers end up doing hatchet runs more regularly to afford to take in guns. 
Punish those hatchetlings more (by making their lives harder) then they leave the game. 
Less players = longer queues, emptier games and all round boredom. 

TLDR: Quit picking on the poor hatchlings you bully! 

Hatchlings ruin the tarkov experience. No one bought into the game to fight hatchet runners. What makes it worse is for every hatchet in the raid that is one less geared player to fight. How many hatchet runners did you see in the official trailers and gameplay videos? 
TL:DR destroy all hatchets (especially if they wiggle at you).

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carthagelost

My point is people hatchet run because of the way the game is right now. Its a symptom of problems that I mentioned above. Ideally you won't have to hatchet run at all, but with the way things are, its just the easiest way of accomplishing goals. You have to make incentives to not run with a hatchet, not punish playstyles. That's a really slippery slope. Because like I said, people will just buy a cheap pistol, throw it in their alpha and hunt for quest/keys. Then you're looking to nerf all of this, which punishes everyone who doesn't hatchet run. 

The solution is to make it much more beneficial to have gear. Lets look at an IRL example. For the longest time, games were pirated in Russia. The problem was that they were simply too expensive. The solution for the longest time was DRM, which punished everyone playing the game. Then, someone decided to do region pricing. Games were priced cheaper in regions where people couldn't afford them. Low and behold, piracy became much much less common. You gave people an incentive to buy the game by making it cheaper for them. You didn't punish everyone, but removed the need for piracy. It made pirating the game more tedious than simply buying it. The solution is the same for hatchet running. Make it unnecessary but don't penalize everyone playing by doing so.

Punishment of this will only end up punishing everyone. You have to make it so there is no need to hatchet run. And currently this is not really the case. I'm not saying the game is bad, I love the game. I think its a lot of fun and provided most of my tense gaming moments in recent memory. However, that doesn't mean it doesn't have flaws. Hatchet running is just a symptom. Taking care of the reasons why people hatchet run will remove it naturally, rather than punishing everyone who doesn't. 

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IMO you're addressing a  problem which only exists in alpha/beta - as I understand it the aim of this game is to become an open world survival... 
A lot of things are yet to change between now and the final product - pricing structure of all items, currency values etc etc to make the game difficult..

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To be honest Hatching will be tougher now that players know that dogtags are now a thing and are worth quite a bit of money. Ever since this new wipe I have done one Hatch run because I have always made more than 5K rubles per run thanks to looting tills, weapons boxes and picking up the odd dogtag or two.

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carthagelost
1 hour ago, Sixfivesix said:

IMO you're addressing a  problem which only exists in alpha/beta - as I understand it the aim of this game is to become an open world survival... 
A lot of things are yet to change between now and the final product - pricing structure of all items, currency values etc etc to make the game difficult..

I know, I'm addressing it so it doesn't become common in the final product while punishing play-styles and people who don't. There will always be a few who do it no matter what, but once these issues are resolved it'll become a lot less common. I just don't want solutions that punish everyone.

10 minutes ago, DanDead said:

To be honest Hatching will be tougher now that players know that dogtags are now a thing and are worth quite a bit of money. Ever since this new wipe I have done one Hatch run because I have always made more than 5K rubles per run thanks to looting tills, weapons boxes and picking up the odd dogtag or two.

Truth. Its better to go in with a pistol, gun down a hatchetling who tries to hit you and take his dogtag. You just paid for your pistol/ammo.

3 hours ago, Sempai_Speed said:

Hatchlings ruin the tarkov experience. No one bought into the game to fight hatchet runners. What makes it worse is for every hatchet in the raid that is one less geared player to fight. How many hatchet runners did you see in the official trailers and gameplay videos? 
TL:DR destroy all hatchets (especially if they wiggle at you).

I don't think they ruin it (Dogtags being worth a lot is a good temp solution) but it is just a symptom of some problems that need to be ironed out. They're good for experience and money now. And also yes, kill all hatcheters. I've wiggled and they were friendly until they tried to get the drop on you or threw a grenade at you. Always kill them and take their dogtags. 

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georgeadam

They did announce somewhere they were looking into limiting the amount of unarmed (hatchlings) that are in each round. 

I have an issues with your hatchling should be purely a choice. Firstly the game is about losing your gear, it's not cod, you don't just spawn in again with a brand new m4. You're supposed to weigh up the risk of bringing in certain items. When that stuff becomes easily affordable is when this turns into entirely a deathmatch game, there'd be no looting and it'd be all about rushing the spawns to kill players. (Partly a mini rage at tags being over priced by far)

Half of the excitement of the game is stealing someone else's hard work, be that a kitted m4/ak, some fort armor etc etc. 

Even if you remove all of the melee. People will still spawn in without a gun just to loot, like they were before the patch. It's not their fault they want to be cheap. 
Example: I'll go into woods games with just a vepr to steal someone else's poo, but i don't bring anything else. So excluding tags, someone kills me, they get maybe 12k from selling my gun. Is that a problem? 12k isn't enough to buy anything substantial but I've just become a hell of a lot more deadly(when I've not had a few too many) to everyone else in there.

I don't actually think half the maps would be fun with 100% geared players all the time. Majority of the players would spend more time loading into games than playing. Having hatchlings rushing to the centre of the map free's up a lot of space in the spawn areas. 

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I'm pretty new to the survival game genre in general (not counting PUBG which I wouldn't really call a survival game), but I do love my milsims both IRL and on a pc. 

What got me into EfT is the idea of risk vs reward - you bring in something you can lose forever to get something (hopefully better) in return. After looking into this game it just looked like FPS EVE Online (which I've been playing for quite a few years) and it got me hooked since the first raid I did. 

That is, until some dude with a hatchet ran up to me and even though I unloaded a full AK mag point blank into him, I died from two hits. I do understand why people do hatchet runs, and I must admit I tried a couple myself, but I stopped there - running around with a hatchet in a factory just made me feel like I was playing Call of Doodie: Whatever Warfare. I do hate the lags and desyncs and disconnects as much as the other guy, but holy damn do the hatchet bois break the immersion of this game. Getting killed by a hatchet runner makes me want to stop playing the game for the day more than getting hosed down with lead by an actually armed character (scav or PMC, I don't give a damn) with full light kit (PACA/modded AK/Blackrock/etc).

As for a solution for this... 

In my mind, it's simple. To enter a raid as a PMC, you have to have a firearm with at least one extra mag equipped. Actually risk something to be able to go into a raid, even if it is a PM with an extra mag. 

And since there will ALWAYS be someone salty about stuff like this, add a scav loadout that has a duffle bag, a bandage and the god damn hatchet. One in the whole instance. Make it look like this little SCAV named Dimitry Topor (←axe in russian) just got to tarkov and has nothing except what's on him.

There are people in EVE that you could compare to hatchet runners. People who take small ships to loot other people's containers or salvage a field of wrecks after a pvp battle. Thing is - if they start looting wrecks that belong to other players they get a suspect timer, which means ANYONE, no matter what security the system is, can attack that ship, again, risking their ships and modules and whatever loot they have if the guy they engaged is actually decent in PVP. 

As for people who salvage wrecks after pvp battles... well, pvp mostly takes place in outlawed space, where anyone can and will try to kill you. 

This is what is missing from Tarkov at this moment (besides solving connectivity issues) - enforced Risk vs. Reward.

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8 minutes ago, sabukaz said:

In my mind, it's simple. To enter a raid as a PMC, you have to have a firearm with at least one extra mag equipped. Actually risk something to be able to go into a raid, even if it is a PM with an extra mag. 

This will obviously not work with the current setup. The whole thing about EFT is that you lose your gear when you die. So enforcing people to bring a gun/mag will not work. That rules out the choice that people have to balance risk and reward. Furthermore, when you are completely out of stuff, then your only choice is to go out with a knife/hatchet.

I agree with the topic starter. Hatchlings are part of the game, and you could steer that a bit by rewarding (not punishing or enforcing certain playing styles) desired behaviour, so make it more beneficial/profitable to go with guns into a raid, instead of with only a knife/hatchet.

There will always be hatchlings, and I think it is a good thing, maybe with some tweaking as topic starter proposes.

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30 minutes ago, PGR70 said:

Furthermore, when you are completely out of stuff, then your only choice is to go out with a knife/hatchet.

This is exactly what scav mode is for. Going out when you don't have/don't want to risk anything to get at least something.

I will once again use EVE Online as an example.

Insurance: There is insurance in EVE, but instead of giving you an identical ship that you lost, it just gives you the base price of the hull (no modifications/modules/ammunition/etc). Let's face it, the current insurance doesn't really work with all the hatchet runners. From the 40ish raids i did before patch 0.5.0 I only got my stuff back twice. Honestly the only way insurance works in it's current state is if you find a gun WAY better than yours and have nowhere to put it, you can hide your insured stuff and wait for it to get back. Seems to cater more to the experienced/better equipped player IMO. 

Having nothing: when a player in EVE loses all their stuff/cash/ships, or if a player enters a station in their capsule, they are given a very basic ship, that's not really good for anything, but it's still something. This mechanic can also be implemented with some tweaks into EfT. For example: if a player has NOTHING, they are given a PM that has it's durability greatly reduced. In other words, it will fire, it will kill, but it might jam/etc. 

 

Another way to curb the abuse of hatchet runs - give it a cooldown, just like for SCAV mode, but longer. 45-60 minutes. You got your no-risk reward, now go do an actual raid.

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Your_Moms_Gyno
13 minutes ago, sabukaz said:

This is exactly what scav mode is for. Going out when you don't have/don't want to risk anything to get at least something.

[snip]

Another way to curb the abuse of hatchet runs - give it a cooldown, just like for SCAV mode, but longer. 45-60 minutes. You got your no-risk reward, now go do an actual raid.

So scav mode is for gearing up? which is time limited to 30min (after you fail/pass). And if you fail you still have an ability to use hatchet which you suggest to have a longer cooldown?

Hatchets don't always get that far that fast so unless you're creeping through the map (and enjoy that) you're most likely going to find a 15-30minute down time where you can do absolutely nothing bar look at your gear.

The topic has been done to death, but there's nothing wrong with hatchlings: working as intended.

It's beta, when the game opens up to open world you're going to see a lot less of them. And you're most likely to see hatchlings on customs/factory because that's where most of the quests/quick loot are. If you're dying to hatchies on woods/shoreline there's something wrong.

In fact: the majority of the responses here serve only to validate the play style (again, done to death topic).

Edited by qS_Sachiel
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georgeadam
55 minutes ago, sabukaz said:

Having nothing: when a player in EVE loses all their stuff/cash/ships, or if a player enters a station in their capsule, they are given a very basic ship, that's not really good for anything, but it's still something. This mechanic can also be implemented with some tweaks into EfT. For example: if a player has NOTHING, they are given a PM that has it's durability greatly reduced. In other words, it will fire, it will kill, but it might jam/etc. 

Hatchet is a lot more deadly than an Ibis. Also the grind from Ibis back to to a BC (average ship I'd say) is probably 3x as long as getting back to a full set of get on Tarkov with a hatchet. 

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I'm a fan of the hatchling paradigm but they are a bit OP at the moment.

The amount of times I've blown a hatchy to pieces and somehow the hatch seems to still get to me is ridiculous. 

I mostly put it down to lag but their movement/swing does need a slight adjustment

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i rly dont see the problem some people have with hatchlings. its part of the game.

even tho my stash is full and i dont need any gear, i like to do hatchling runs cus its hella fun.

 

if you are good, hatchlings are no problem. no need to cry on the forums

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the problem is not with the playstyle. the problem is the current state of hatclings vs weapons... it is ducking nonsense + a little lagg/desync or whatever makes them hit me from 3 meters :(

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Grimmfang13

Yep.. just lost a full loadout to a hatchling thanks to the huge desync during their stress test.  Hatchlings are and always will be a play style in this game... might as well get used to it.

 

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As mentioned multiple times by people above, melee-only runs will always be a thing even when the existing problems that drive them are gone. I really enjoy playing Solid-Snake style, even though I get killed quite a bit of the time, because it helps clear my head and really challenges me to play smart. Hatchet runs are the best way to acquire weapons besides Scav runs, which have a 30-minute burn time.

 

I'm currently sitting on a very fat pile of gear and rubles, but will heavily gear up when doing any quest-related work, so it's not like the gear gets wasted. Some people prefer playing geared up and are frustrated by Hatcheteers, while some other people like me enjoy minimalist runs and can gear up when there's a high-value objective driving us to do so. It's a play style! I do think that once desync and hit register issues are out of the picture, they'll be much more balanced, but it kinda makes sense that a ducking axe will be a scary weapon in close-quarters maps like Factory yes?

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  • 1 month later...
desolatexone

the biggest reason for hatchlings is that for lower level or new geared players its too difficult to get gear honestly. I run with a paca and kiver with an AKM or M4 and as soon as a dude walks up on me with a fast MT and for thats a wrap, I go down instantly, even if I get the drop on him. After loosing everything I have and having zero money I just say f**k it and start running hatchet because I simply don't have gear. I have only ever gotten 3 fort armors and 1 fast MT and a lot of others running hatchet runs are like that

 

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SpineyNorman

Quite honestly I play the same way I play DayZ, lone wolf. If I'm running hatchet it's because I ENJOY the challange...I've got ONE shot at enemy be it Scav or PMC to die or get bit of gear which I then use to kill for better gear and so on and so on until I extract or die. No amount of puling from tanked up kill squads about how "unfair" it is that I out played them by extracting, or wasn't enough of a "loot piñata" is gonna make me play any way other than the way I want to.

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Master hatchling reporting in,

As the runner above me posted, the way of the hatchet is the life for me. There is nothing better than loading into a map with my GDR, running as fast as my legs will allow to the closest weapon spawn and ambushing players once armed. We're literally going from zero to hero and walking out with so much equipment that it should be physically impossible for us to move onward to the extraction point due to the sheer amount of weight.

 

I'm honestly considering applying to the Sherpa program to teach people how to hatchet run in the most efficient and effective way possible. To properly deploy ambushes, when to retreat, how to flank and counter ambush. This style of play is considerably more fun that loading in with a fighting kit. Its a refreshing and challenging change from all the other first person shooters where we start off with a basic kit and go full auto crazy.

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here is an easy fix. They can just put cooldown on secure containers upon death. If hatchlings cant get the good loot out that much rich players will stop complaining

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