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varenvel

PVE mode , hear me out

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5 minutes ago, Starlight said:

Tarkov is incredibly exciting and unique because it is one of the very, very few titles to be built with players like me forefront in the developers' minds. Yes, they totally could add a dedicated PvE lane, or cater more heavily to solo players, etc. But there's a solid chunk of us who would see that as flat-out wasted time, and will silently cheer every time they ignore pure PvE to focus on PvP.

Reason why I support EFT, is hoping they will make a mix of PVP and PVE with emphasis on PVP. 

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2 minutes ago, FoxFort said:

Reason why I support EFT, is hoping they will make a mix of PVP and PVE with emphasis on PVP. 

That's fine, but I was specifically rebutting the fact that you want them to be separate lanes, which TLDR I think is stupid (per above).

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19 minutes ago, Starlight said:

That's fine, but I was specifically rebutting the fact that you want them to be separate lanes, which TLDR I think is stupid (per above).

And you skipped the rest of post where one of suggestion was locking Level 3 and 4 with traders which can be access only via PVP.

So something like that would be a mix. There are numerus way of making a mix which would work with everyone. But being only PVP is meh. Making 2028 only PVE is also meh. But fusion of those two will make the game stand out on the market and provide unique experience on a long run.

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1 hour ago, FoxFort said:

And you skipped the rest of post where one of suggestion was locking Level 3 and 4 with traders which can be access only via PVP.

So something like that would be a mix. There are numerus way of making a mix which would work with everyone. But being only PVP is meh. Making 2028 only PVE is also meh. But fusion of those two will make the game stand out on the market and provide unique experience on a long run.

I didn't skip the additional details - I fully understand your opinion and personally fundamentally disagree with the premise regardless of how many caveats are piled on top.

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6 hours ago, tobiassolem said:

Let's say you and I meet somewhere in Tarkov, we're both USEC. And in this particular example I'm a murderous fragging son of a ... . And I shoot you. How would anyone else know what I did? In the scenario described; you would be dead, and anyone I met after would have no idea what just happened (unless of course they witnessed it). One of the reasons why this happens in Tarkov, is the same reason why it happens in any zone where there is a perceived lack of consequences for actions. You can see it in riots, and in hardcore survival situations. There are stories from ships sinking of people literally stepping on others trying to survive.

Thomas Hobbes has been refuted many times, but there are situations where I think his point actually is relevant, and in some sad, dark way I believe that without society and comfort - many individuals will abandon morality. This is why I believe its so important to have society, and why its important to socialize. And this is why I think its a good idea to join a group/clan or whatever also. 

One other thing, "fun" is a very limited view of what games should be. Personally I prefer "flow". A game can be frustrating, annoying, gut-wrenchingly sad, or extremely challenging to any sense, and still be very good. Hence why game flow is more important in my opinion. Escape From Tarkov might not be fun at all times, but it certainly has a lot of the other parts I like.

I think you just have to either accept that EFT won't be the PvE-heaven you'd prefer. At least not yet. We'll see if Battlestate opens up the game for modding sometime down the line (after all Unity is extremely moddable). 

Because all "re-spawning mechanics" , having stash of presistant gear despite you died is realistic

because levelling up is realistic

Levels are retained(despite you died anyway and you not exist any more)

Because possessing random bandit on map is realistic

Because items magic aper into your inventory using email code(Christmas)

 

AND EVEN IF what you said was set in stone , all other games and common sense explained it well , even in stalker you had missions to investigate stalker who was killing his buddies he went with , people would eventually found out that going on mission with this guy means death , they would find proof , or he would be killed eventually , especially said person keeps returning with "insured" "marked gear" "and lots of items including USEC armours/weapons"

 

not to say if victim was on radio and managed to report anything to anyone all your concept of "no witnesses" would go out of the window , not to say you never know if someone is not watching this from far away

 

but like i said 3 times before(yet you keep insisting to bring up realism concepts back) this is talk about potential PVE , not if if its realistic or not

Edited by varenvel

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1 hour ago, varenvel said:

Because all "re-spawning mechanics" , having stash of presistant gear despite you died is realistic

because levelling up is realistic

Levels are retained(despite you died anyway and you not exist any more)

Because possessing random bandit on map is realistic

Because items magic aper into your inventory using email code(Christmas)

 

AND EVEN IF what you said was set in stone , all other games and common sense explained it well , even in stalker you had missions to investigate stalker who was killing his buddies he went with , people would eventually found out that going on mission with this guy means death , they would find proof , or he would be killed eventually , especially said person keeps returning with "insured" "marked gear" "and lots of items including USEC armours/weapons"

 

not to say if victim was on radio and managed to report anything to anyone all your concept of "no witnesses" would go out of the window , not to say you never know if someone is not watching this from far away

 

but like i said 3 times before(yet you keep insisting to bring up realism concepts back) this is talk about potential PVE , not if if its realistic or not

First of all, Escape From Tarkov is a game. No matter how we twist and turn it, it is a game set in a fictional, alternate, and purely imagined "reality". So with this in mind, whenever "realism" is discussed or inferred; we have to accept that it is game realism in a ficticious context

What a game, at best ever can do is attempt to simulate realism, but it can never leave the confines of it being a game. Limited by the interactions of digital apparatuses, primarily for entertainment purposes.

In a game context, the concept of respawning, inventories, levels, and "playing a character" are so common that arguing that they aren't "realistic" is like saying: "By the way, Gandalf doesn't really exist". What makes "Gandalf" and "Respawning" realistic is that he/it remains within the confines of the mechanics defined by the rules as defined by the lore and/or boundries created by and limited by the medium.

Game realism simulates reality within the confines of being a game, made for entertainment purposes. So for example, a title where you (as you suggest) would DIE permanently, lose everything, and can never play again; while tempting in a hardcore game (there certainly are 'ironman'-modes in other games) such an aspect in Escape From Tarkov would essentially mean that progress in Escape From Tarkov would essentially be nonexistent. Because dying is/would be common since one singular individual is meant to face overwhelming odds (as you do in EFT). 

I assume you already know all of this but there seems to be an almost puerile dissent in your tone mixed with an "if they don't do it like I want it, then they will fail" sort of  hyperbole, that you use it as some sort of lever to make your disagreement with the design seem less than a subjective rant. I think you really know what "realism" in this context is, for example counterparts to real guns, real ballistics, etc. etc. - but if you insist on "realism" only being an exact replica/simulation of what ACTUALLY definitely would happen in reality. Then no. Escape From Tarkov is NOT realistic. But again, this stipulation is beyond futile within the context of a game.

As already has been stated countless of times, the game is unfinished. In the final product there will be a Karma-system, and yes; the behavior of traders will continue to be based on your reputation with them, and I've already read discussions of some form of bounty system. But if you honestly mean that if a player commits a crime in this game, they should forever be condemned in the game for their actions, then you are either not realizing the consequences of that, or you simply don't care what Escape From Tarkov is: A (squad based) combat oriented game, with player versus player at the heart, within a city where morality has run dry, and atrocities are committed. You as a player decide what to do. 

And, philosophically speaking. I find what happens quite intriguing. The fact that players go to wanton killing sprees, regardless of the target... is human behavior within gaming confines. Some people enjoy it, others clearly do not.

Perhaps you have to accept that. Regardless of what EFT could have been had it been a PvE-title, it isn't meant to be. By the very designers of the title.

 

 

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1 minute ago, tobiassolem said:

First of all, Escape From Tarkov is a game. No matter how we twist and turn it, it is a game set in a fictional, alternate, and purely imagined "reality". So with this in mind, whenever "realism" is discussed or inferred; we have to accept that it is game realism in a ficticious context

What a game, at best ever can do is attempt to simulate realism, but it can never leave the confines of it being a game. Limited by the interactions of digital apparatuses, primarily for entertainment purposes.

In a game context, the concept of respawning, inventories, levels, and "playing a character" are so common that arguing that they aren't "realistic" is like saying: "By the way, Gandalf doesn't really exist". What makes "Gandalf" and "Respawning" realistic is that he/it remains within the confines of the mechanics defined by the rules as defined by the lore and/or boundries created by and limited by the medium.

Game realism simulates reality within the confines of being a game, made for entertainment purposes. So for example, a title where you (as you suggest) would DIE permanently, lose everything, and can never play again; while tempting in a hardcore game (there certainly are 'ironman'-modes in other games) such an aspect in Escape From Tarkov would essentially mean that progress in Escape From Tarkov would essentially be nonexistent. Because dying is/would be common since one singular individual is meant to face overwhelming odds (as you do in EFT). 

I assume you already know all of this but there seems to be an almost puerile dissent in your tone mixed with an "if they don't do it like I want it, then they will fail" sort of  hyperbole, that you use it as some sort of lever to make your disagreement with the design seem less than a subjective rant. I think you really know what "realism" in this context is, for example counterparts to real guns, real ballistics, etc. etc. - but if you insist on "realism" only being an exact replica/simulation of what ACTUALLY definitely would happen in reality. Then no. Escape From Tarkov is NOT realistic. But again, this stipulation is beyond futile within the context of a game.

As already has been stated countless of times, the game is unfinished. In the final product there will be a Karma-system, and yes; the behavior of traders will continue to be based on your reputation with them, and I've already read discussions of some form of bounty system. But if you honestly mean that if a player commits a crime in this game, they should forever be condemned in the game for their actions, then you are either not realizing the consequences of that, or you simply don't care what Escape From Tarkov is: A (squad based) combat oriented game, with player versus player at the heart, within a city where morality has run dry, and atrocities are committed. You as a player decide what to do. 

And, philosophically speaking. I find what happens quite intriguing. The fact that players go to wanton killing sprees, regardless of the target... is human behavior within gaming confines. Some people enjoy it, others clearly do not.

Perhaps you have to accept that. Regardless of what EFT could have been had it been a PvE-title, it isn't meant to be. By the very designers of the title.

 

 

I never said it will fail

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Just now, tobiassolem said:

Pardon me. You are right. You did not. I mixed up your previous post with anothers.

its ok , 

as for reputation i not really spoke about the game itself , just was replying to your hypothetical scenario you mentioned in last quote.

 

As for extreme realism , there was set of dayz servers where dying meant permanent ban meaning everyone truly had 1 life.(not sure how long lived server/concept was)

i am aware its unfinished , was replying to just the things you said

Mostly and foremost i just wanted to discuss potential of possible PVE as concept as it would not interfere with PVP and main aspect of the game. on end of the day maybe they change ther mind , or not but that's what forums are for , discussing ideas and concepts.

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I understand not carrying over loot from offline to online but a team wanting to learn a map together or practice maneuvers and communication would be the reason to keep offline and broaden to loading with group(granted still do not allow looting. Training only).  In real life military and police both train in teams in combat situations to have better communications and assign roles.  This would encourage teams to take in different weapons based on roles to online mode allowing for an even more realistic team based shooter.  Trying to teach a new member on my team what to look for in real time or how some game mechanics work just risks my own equipment and encourages me to be a lone wolf and not work with anyone who hasn't had extensive time in game.  I have been involved since early alpha and love the game and every update gets better so I'm hopeful for this change.  Keep up the amazing work

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I agree with the op, i think there should 100% be a separate coop mode with a separate character, personally i think many of the players are in a disadvantage because they don't have all day to play the game and loot up and they instantly get destroyed by a player who can play all day once they spawn, i can relate to this myself because of people who camp spawns and extract zones i am deeply disadvantaged. in addition coop game play should have been in the to do list since launch, i think that is part of what the game should be as a tactical shooter, currently the game is basically a huge pvp sandbox with little incentive to work as a team and if you have a group who is working as a team they own the whole sever. All im saying is that a coop mode with a separate character and possibly more scavs instead of players would make the game appeal to a much wider audience. id be encouraged to hear opinions from a opposite viewpoint so if you disagree, say so and why, thanks!

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On 30-12-2017 at 11:15 PM, GhostZ69 said:

They already have the technology.  They should use it for this. The more "game modes" and play styles they support the more games they will sell.  The dev's they can hire to make the game better.  The more games they can sell.

Honestly, I would like to see:

 

Main Tarkov, a lot like it is now with some tweaks.  This has it's MT (Main Tarkov) player save.

Offline mode that uses MT.  Just like it is now.  Lets you take out some gear, test it out.  You lose nothing, you gain nothing.

Offline Co-Op mode with MT character.  This allows you and your buddies to go into a match and play all you want.  You gain nothing, you lose nothing.

Completely new OT (Offline Tarkov) save.  This is completely seperate from the Main Tarkov game.  Allow an editor.  Give players make trader levels.  Start them with 3 money cases full of money.  Let this be a fun mode that has zero effect on the real game at all.  Can be played in Co-Op mode with friends with the same OT save.  Can even be played with no internet connection at all.

 

This can all be accomplished with very little effort from the Dev's and could cause a huge increase in the number of sales of the game.  It would NOT take away from the main game at all.  It would have zero effect on all of the "Hardcore" guys out there.  No reason what so ever not to do it.  

Yes let's make another game that's completely seperate from the main Tarkov game :D

More game modes do not equal more sales.

There are multiple reason to not implement this (server costs, increase of queue times, having to update the game mode every patch etc.)

This can not be accomplished with very little effort.

 

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4 hours ago, Slice-NL said:

Yes let's make another game that's completely seperate from the main Tarkov game :D

More game modes do not equal more sales.

There are multiple reason to not implement this (server costs, increase of queue times, having to update the game mode every patch etc.)

This can not be accomplished with very little effort.

 

I think you need need to actually do some thinking maybe?  Let's go through this one line at a time.

More game modes does not equal more sales.  What?  Are you serious?  So, you are saying that if CoD was ONLY a single player game with no PvP it would make the same sales?  Are you saying if CoD was ONLY online PvP it would make the same sales?  I just can't even imagine that you might actually believe your own statement.

There are multiple reason to not implement this (server costs, increase of queue times, having to update the game mode every patch etc.)  There are server costs for BSG to run a completely offline game on your own computer?  That is a new one on me.  How would me, playing a single player version of the game on my own computer affect your que time?  Seriously?  It is the SAME game, just one is online, one is offline.  The same patch.  Exactly the same game.  Once connects to the internet for match-matching, the other does not.  What extra work on a patch?

 

Come on man, at least try to make a little bit of sense.  I can understand if you just said, "No, I do not want you to have BLAH BLAH, because I do not want you to have it."  I could at least be like, "Ok, he does not want me to have it."  But, with your "arguments" it's like, WTF?

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I think the people against this seem to think that it will ruin the game they want to play and I don't see how. You still get the play the same game and other will get to play theirs. Again its already there, in game, right now. the only thing missing is a separate charceter and the ability to bring back loot.

seriously, building a game only for the "hardcore", "biggest dicks" is a pretty niche product. 

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49 minutes ago, GhostZ69 said:

I think you need need to actually do some thinking maybe?  Let's go through this one line at a time.

More game modes does not equal more sales.  What?  Are you serious?  So, you are saying that if CoD was ONLY a single player game with no PvP it would make the same sales?  Are you saying if CoD was ONLY online PvP it would make the same sales?  I just can't even imagine that you might actually believe your own statement.

There are multiple reason to not implement this (server costs, increase of queue times, having to update the game mode every patch etc.)  There are server costs for BSG to run a completely offline game on your own computer?  That is a new one on me.  How would me, playing a single player version of the game on my own computer affect your que time?  Seriously?  It is the SAME game, just one is online, one is offline.  The same patch.  Exactly the same game.  Once connects to the internet for match-matching, the other does not.  What extra work on a patch?

 

Come on man, at least try to make a little bit of sense.  I can understand if you just said, "No, I do not want you to have BLAH BLAH, because I do not want you to have it."  I could at least be like, "Ok, he does not want me to have it."  But, with your "arguments" it's like, WTF?

I agree with you 100% @GhostZ69

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1 hour ago, GhostZ69 said:

I think you need need to actually do some thinking maybe?  Let's go through this one line at a time.

More game modes does not equal more sales.  What?  Are you serious?  So, you are saying that if CoD was ONLY a single player game with no PvP it would make the same sales?  Are you saying if CoD was ONLY online PvP it would make the same sales?  I just can't even imagine that you might actually believe your own statement.

There are multiple reason to not implement this (server costs, increase of queue times, having to update the game mode every patch etc.)  There are server costs for BSG to run a completely offline game on your own computer?  That is a new one on me.  How would me, playing a single player version of the game on my own computer affect your que time?  Seriously?  It is the SAME game, just one is online, one is offline.  The same patch.  Exactly the same game.  Once connects to the internet for match-matching, the other does not.  What extra work on a patch?

 

Come on man, at least try to make a little bit of sense.  I can understand if you just said, "No, I do not want you to have BLAH BLAH, because I do not want you to have it."  I could at least be like, "Ok, he does not want me to have it."  But, with your "arguments" it's like, WTF?

All my arguments are valid, I know what I'm talking about.

And yes, there are server costs in an ''offline'' mode, and yes it would increase queue times for online matchmaking and yes it would have to be patched every single update.

And ofcourse some games need certain game modes, but like I said, more game modes do not equal more sales.

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15 minutes ago, Slice-NL said:

All my arguments are valid, I know what I'm talking about.

And yes, there are server costs in an ''offline'' mode, and yes it would increase queue times for online matchmaking and yes it would have to be patched every single update.

And ofcourse some games need certain game modes, but like I said, more game modes do not equal more sales.

There are no server costs for an offline game that does not connect to the internet. And playing singleplayer does not affect multi-player queue's. Do some research bro. I know what I am talking about as I have gone to school for Information Technology and have ran several game server's that also have a singleplayer version of the game and it in no way affects my game servers if i am playing singleplayer.

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Probably behind the curve on this one. I could get behind a remaining offline pve mode on maps you have 'completed' whatever that means. But adding coop pve would cause much more development strain, either providing servers for coop matching or developing a separate networking connection. which means more testing etc. 

In a world where scope creep has killed things or changed things dramatically i'm happy that the Tarkov dev's have a vision and are working towards it pretty well!

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9 minutes ago, RagingRedneck said:

There are no server costs for an offline game that does not connect to the internet. And playing singleplayer does not affect multi-player queue's. Do some research bro. I know what I am talking about as I have gone to school for Information Technology and have ran several game server's that also have a singleplayer version of the game and it in no way affects my game servers if i am playing singleplayer.

I think he is just trolling us to be honest...  lol  I used to run 4 of the biggest DayZ servers in the world.  When I ran our test server, hosted on a completely different dedicated server, it in no way affected live servers.  We patched the test server and tested things there then pushed it to the live servers.  That dude has not a clue.  @Slice-NL

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6 minutes ago, RagingRedneck said:

There are no server costs for an offline game that does not connect to the internet. And playing singleplayer does not affect multi-player queue's. Do some research bro. I know what I am talking about as I have gone to school for Information Technology and have ran several game server's that also have a singleplayer version of the game and it in no way affects my game servers if i am playing singleplayer.

You are already on a server when you are at the main menu. And ofcourse it can affect the MP queue if less people play on MP because of the ''offline'' mode, I'm not saying it will hurt the servers.

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9 minutes ago, Slice-NL said:

You are already on a server when you are at the main menu. And ofcourse it can affect the MP queue if less people play on MP because of the ''offline'' mode, I'm not saying it will hurt the servers.

You are already on a server when you are at the main menu. :  A true offline mode would not even require an online connection.  However, an "offline" Co-Op would.  

And of course it can affect the MP queue if less people play on MP because of the ''offline'' mode, I'm not saying it will hurt the servers.  Actually, it would make your ques faster.  You do NOT have to wait for a full server for the game to start.  However, in the long run I think it would keep the game alive longer and more players to the game to give it more life.

 

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18 minutes ago, GhostZ69 said:

You are already on a server when you are at the main menu. :  A true offline mode would not even require an online connection.  However, an "offline" Co-Op would.  

And of course it can affect the MP queue if less people play on MP because of the ''offline'' mode, I'm not saying it will hurt the servers.  Actually, it would make your ques faster.  You do NOT have to wait for a full server for the game to start.  However, in the long run I think it would keep the game alive longer and more players to the game to give it more life.

 

''A true offline mode would not even require an online connection.  However, an "offline" Co-Op would.  '' Correct, and I thought we were talking about co-op? And having a ''true offline mode'' would bring it's own consequences like cheats/trainers/mods etc. People could totally miss the multiplayer experience that the devs intended for the player if they play the ''true offline mode'' with infinite money cheats etc. before actually playing the normal online mode.

''Actually, it would make your ques faster.  You do NOT have to wait for a full server for the game to start.  However, in the long run I think it would keep the game alive longer and more players to the game to give it more life''

To put it in perspective, League of Legends is one of the most popular games, with about 80 million players, and even they won't give the players all the game modes to host. Even a popular game like LoL has to be careful about queue times.

 

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13 hours ago, jektporkins said:

Probably behind the curve on this one. I could get behind a remaining offline pve mode on maps you have 'completed' whatever that means. But adding coop pve would cause much more development strain, either providing servers for coop matching or developing a separate networking connection. which means more testing etc. 

In a world where scope creep has killed things or changed things dramatically i'm happy that the Tarkov dev's have a vision and are working towards it pretty well!

yea the co-op pve option wouldn't work well and adds much more complexity to the issue. I think that should left out of the idea. Just make the PvE mode you vs AI with a separate character.

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On 1/4/2018 at 6:41 PM, Slice-NL said:

''A true offline mode would not even require an online connection.  However, an "offline" Co-Op would.  '' Correct, and I thought we were talking about co-op? And having a ''true offline mode'' would bring it's own consequences like cheats/trainers/mods etc. People could totally miss the multiplayer experience that the devs intended for the player if they play the ''true offline mode'' with infinite money cheats etc. before actually playing the normal online mode.

 

In theory you could also avoid server load issues by releasing a private server hosting package to allow the individuals to simply host their own offline mode on their own hardware while implicitly disabling the ability for any changes made on this server from contacting the official databases that store character information.

Another alternative would be to simply engineer the offline mode to run on a local machine and allow direct connect via IP, sharing the load in a peer-to-peer fashion.

 

In either case, these take the strain off of the main servers and front them to the user's hardware while maintaining Co-Op functionality and preventing it from skewing the game economy on the main servers.

And frankly, who cares if cheats/trainers/mods are used offline? That doesn't affect your experience at all. That's like saying someone's privately expressed sexual fetish you dislike should forcibly not happen because you don't like it. It isn't even happening in a realm you're aware of, what does it matter?

And likewise who cares if players miss the multiplayer experience? People who would get in-game, play offline singleplayer/coop, and don't try the online mode are the same who aren't even going to give the game a try in the first place because they aren't interested in PVP heavy games to begin with. Offline mode or not, you're talking about losing a group that's already lost, man. You're far more likely to gain players by giving them an environment to learn the mechanics at their own pace and by giving on-the-fence players a more comfortable way to be enticed by the gameplay.

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