Jump to content
WalrusJJones

Trying to solve the hatchling overpopulation, by adressing the causes.

In regards to the thread.  

193 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you prefer a mechanic that punishes hatchlings, or one that simply makes players more willing to not be one?

    • Punish.
      14
    • Prevent with constructive methods.
      145
    • Both to some degree.
      34
  2. 2. Do you think the early game economy is part of the cause of hatchlings?

    • Yes. (Its worth fixing.)
      82
    • No.
      73
    • Yes. (But keep it the same.)
      38
  3. 3. Would you be interested in seing a price adjustment to pistol calliber weapons like the Saiga-9?

    • Yes.
      129
    • No.
      64


Recommended Posts

WalrusJJones

Note: This post started on reddit, but I am fairly certain that a forum format will fit it better.

 

Forward:
Currently in EFT, there are three root causes of the hatchling plague.

  1. Lack of a cohesive, early game strategy. Players starting off will get cut down due to a large variety factors, and getting cut down is a powerful motivators, breeding complacency among new players: Use your case, you can trust it.
  2. Funky early game economics.
  3. Common mechanics among basically all shooters, that allow players to exploit the inherent nature of netcode, that make it so running around with a melee weapon isn't as risky as it should be. (Namely, that sprinting is very fluid, which makes it easy to exploit netcode to reach melee range safely.)

 

Complacency is the end result of the causes of the hatchet syndrome.

If we cannot fix this complacency, we are always going to have a few too many hatchet runners.


What I have seen out in tarkov is pretty simple: New player buying the cheapest guns will end up disappointed. They are limited to ammunition that struggles with class 2 armor, and not able to obtain a full set of armor. Can you think of a self respecting geared player who consistently runs without class 2 armor?
Maybe they read a guide, and heard that the two starter 7.62 by 39mm guns are very good. They are, but these guides will still betray new players if they fight a lightly armored opponent, as the new players available rounds for 7.62 by 39mm are in the form of hollow points, which don't jive with armor.

So they take aim at an armored player, they shoot. They die. Perhaps they shot a scav and attracted a dozen hungry players to their position. Perhaps they simply looted their spawn. It doesn't matter. Their knowledge betrayed them, their gun betrayed them, and the guides betrayed them.

One thing didn't: Their secure case. This is how hatchlings are born.

Players who make a habit of using suppressed firearms without hiding and waiting for the other PMC's to leave the map are going to end up losing the will to gear up, and becoming complacent in the fact that only two items will never leave them.

Their hatchet, and their case.

Until they finish whatever grind they lay out for themselves before they can say they are a real player, or quit the game, these will be their tools.

 

Now, to talk about how I would actually solve this issue of complacency, of helplessness, and not knowing where to go.

 

 

The First Step: Give new players consistent, repeatable goals.
There are the two things we need to do to break players out of the hatchet mindset: To teach them that escaping with a backpack is worthwhile, and to motivate them to fight scavs.

Guns are nice. They are fun to use. They are why we play the game. Yet for a new player, they can be a deathtrap if they don't learn when it is unwise to use them (Especially with the lack of armor piercing ammo.)

Its the use of backpacks that precludes everything else in destroying the hatcheters mindset, since its what makes all other gear worth it.

The other step is to motivate players to become stronger then a scav, and to make it so there is some sort of consistent reward to rummaging a scavs pockets.

It doesn't matter if its in the form of some consistent barter good, a set of daily repeatable task, or whatever. Reward players for facing the scav menace, even if someone else happens to shoot them and take the richest loot.

I wrote a post covering this previously in the form of having the picture ID's of these former civilians be a barter good which can be exchanged for duffle bags that might contain basic things, like Saiga-9's, Toratov pistols, 3M armor, car medkits, and other things that might make a player reconsider their life as a hatchet runner. (With more consistent, precise rewards being offered as trades for larger quantities of ID's.)
Thus, photo ID's of dead men would fill both requirements to breaking through the first major causes of hatchling complacency. It would kill the gear fear for backpacks (The ever so vital first step,) and it would motivate them to fight and kill AI units.
Granting them extra goodies would be a secondary motivational effect.

Lastly one of the early game maps, be it sububs, the streets of tarkov, or perhaps the several few first maps should have a lower number of PMC spawns per square kilometer, but a higher scavanger population. Why? Having high PvE in the early game would give players some chance to learn, stock up on a variety of basic weapons, and experiment with the game in a healthy fashion.

 

 

The Second Step: More realistic running.


Another part of the hatchet problem is that running in tarkov is very fluid, and your turning radius is just as good as it is when you are walking.

This is often fine in other shooters, which is why such fluid sprinting mechanics are common. After all, in other shooters, it is common for all players to have standard issue shooty shoots.

But in tarkov, this has made it so sprinting forward in silly patterns to bug out the netcode with a high damage melee weapon has made a shockingly lasting mark on the games metagame. After all, its free. Its silent. It doesn't betray you.

Simply put, make it so your turning radius while you are sprinting is smaller, and make it so sustained sharp turns eat up speed and stamina equally well.

Suddenly, zig-zagging squirrels no longer need a high capacity magazine to counter them, as their movement will be much less erratic.

 

 

The third step: Adjusting the markets.


I am going to divide the weapons into tiers here, for the sake of ease of explanation.

Tier 0: Melee weapons (Rock bottom.)
Tier 0.5: Obsolete weapons (Weapons that should be better then melee, if just barely, the TOZ and the like. It takes a good deal of skill for this to be preferable to a melee weapon.)
Tier 1: Civilian and law enforcment weapons of the Non-AP variety (Good for PVE, bad for PVP.)
Tier 2: Hunting weaponry (Slower firing weapons with the ability to beat armor with the right ammo.)
Tier 2.5: Specialized Military grade weapons (BASR, and the like.)
Tier 3: Assault rifles and Semi-Auto DMR's (Essentially, the best anti-armor weapons.)

Of these tiers, Tier 2 (Vepr->OP SKS,) and Tier 0.5(Makarov-TOZ) are both reasonably priced.

The Tier 1 fits the range of weapons from (The Saiga-9/MR-133->AKS-74U,) and aside from just the AKS-74U, these weapons are grossly overpriced (Basically most other weapons in this weight class should cost less then the AKSU variants, barring a few obviously very high class weapon variants like the MPX.)
These weapons are the weapons which I would think would be the bare minimum for busting a player out of the complacency of not trusting guns, so their availability should be increased.
This shouldn't be too controversial of a change: After all, its not like a Saiga-9's going to pierce a FAST-MT and cost you a full set of gear.

Tier 2.5 is rarer then it should be, and I hope the game can be tuned so more of the Tier 3 weapon playerbase would be interested in using them.

The 3rd tier of firearms may be more common then it should be, since their firepower is completely overwhelming, and almost completely out of reach of the players we need to motivate to "get gud," it may be wise to make it more difficult to make their use be profitable. After all, being faced with a completely overwhelming forces is part of the pie that causes new players to become complacent.
Yet this step isn't mandatory.

Solving the hatchling plague isn't best done through punishing the strongest players, or the newest players, its making the next few rungs on the ladder up from hatchling a bit more intuitive to reach.

Edited by WalrusJJones
  • Like 8
  • Sad 1
  • Upvote 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Tactical_Tracke

I applaud you, You've created a very well formulated idea, On how to solve an often complained about situation in the game. I generally agree with all points. Fantastic job man

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
nachtmaere

giphy.gif&f=1

Hatchlings are utilizing a legitimate and SEVERELY disadvantaged strategy

You may not agree with it, but as the devs have said before, hatchlings are here to stay (They're just not going to get very far in future)

As for the other points you raise, don't taint your ideas with the stench of Hatchlingphobia, i'd be more than interested to hear your point of view regarding the current (Temporary) state of the economy and such, however they lost credibility when you shoehorned hatchlings into it.

Edited by nachtmaere
  • Like 2
  • Upvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
WalrusJJones

Hence why my suggestion isn't to nuke them from orbit, but to build a pathway that draws people away from being hatchlings forever.

 

At the same time, that GIF is spooky.

  • Like 1
  • Sad 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
nachtmaere
Just now, WalrusJJones said:

Hence why my suggestion isn't to nuke them from orbit, but to build a pathway that draws people away from being hatchlings forever.

 

At the same time, that GIF is spooky.

Yeah but the problem is in the wording you see, hard not to see you as simply someone sitting here complaining (Once again) about the, and i quote, "Hatchling plague"; Aint nobody got time to read another gripe-sesh about hatchlings.

You raise legitimate issues regarding the early game economy and in some ways the overall progression of the game in general; however your wording makes it difficult to see you as anything other than just another person going to absurd lengths to justify his hatred of hatchlings because he personally disagrees with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
WalrusJJones

I tend to be someone who will respect the wiggle of the person knows to wiggle. Hell, when I am running a task, I will frequently do it with a hatchet since tasks unfortunately tend to have very high numerical requirements.

 

The point of what I say about the games economy here is rather simple: The hatchlings might be more numerous then most people would want, but they are people trying to make it through the game. I view them as players whose state needs to be treated (Since, there is a big reserve of fear and complacency for many of the hatchlings, as well as a huge economic disadvantage.) Of course, I understand both the dislike of them, and the tragedy that is implied by their massive population.

Albeit calling the economy of tarkov an economy is sort of silly. Its more of an ecology of trophic levels, and the current state of things is that there is currently a very high population of the top level predators, which is driving the middle levels of the loot chain to extinction, which is then resulting in an overpopulation of the bottom levels of the loot chain.

Monetary rewards are currently very high, which is part of what allows so many mega-predators to exist, meanwhile, low-level gear rewards are more difficult to gather, and gathering them is extremely risky, since it both generates a lot of noise (Which attracts mega-predators,) and adds a lot of monetary worth to your character (This monetary worth is a lot of what drives mega-predators to hunt even prey that doesn't offer them any challenge.)

 

Thus, we need to have a larger volume of low level gear that doesn't carry an unnecessarily high monetary worth flowing into the economy to rehabilitate this economy-ecology of bandits middle tier of players, whom in turn might increase the risk inherent to playing one of the super-predators.

Edited by WalrusJJones

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
nachtmaere
34 minutes ago, WalrusJJones said:

[snip]

Sorry, you are actually just so inspiring (In one of the worst ways possible xD)

cTe3bJy.jpg

Edited by nachtmaere
  • Like 2
  • Hot 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
WalrusJJones

Holy crap. I did just sound like the aristocracy from the potato blight.

 

Regardless, in regards to the dog eats dog state of tarkov, it might be more friendly to say people are victims to their circumstances rather then rabid axe murderers.

This is actually a prompt for deeper thought.

 

Regardless, your image is going to make a great forum signature.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
neur0tix

All you need to get rid of hatchlings is player-driven economy and markets, not ruled by traders.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
WEGO_CAT

the reason of increasing number of hatchling players ( including me) this patch 

is the new yet another picking up random trash for traders quests 

(who want to lose his gear that worth 200 k or more when he search in toolboxs and duffel bags)

  • Like 2
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
WalrusJJones

Placing beacons for Prapor is a special hellish quest. Seriously, the last truck took 15 minutes of rubbing my face against it before I got the prompt to place the beacon, then 5 minutes of strafing in circles trying to get the prompt to work.

 

So yeah, a good number of hatcheters are just grinding tasks, I am sure.

 

(In the reddit thread, we spoke about a possible solutions to this subclass of hatchling, such as repurposing the offline mode so that once you had the necessary keys for a task that wasn't PvP, you could do a once per day offline attempt at a task with a custom scav layout and reduced environmental loot that is designed to make that task interesting/challenging to run doing geared PVE, in addition to allowing unlimited online attempts.

You would only get to keep gear from the offline mode on a success, even if you did extract on a failed run.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
dead5dealer5
2 hours ago, neur0tix said:

All you need to get rid of hatchlings is player-driven economy and markets, not ruled by traders.

Hail the free market xD

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Trnc84

As long as there is the risk of losing gear in a raid there will be people trying to minimize that risk by only bringing a hatchet.

Not everyone in the game has millions of roubles and dollars to spare.

So I'm afraid there will always be hatchlings in the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pogny

There is nothing to solve with hatchlings... Now they have Dogtags everything is fine, I kill them on sigh.

Was no the case before dogstags.

Hatchling cant kill you if you wear armor and helmet... If they do, you deserve it cause you are bad :)

No problem with hatchlings for me, sometimes they just gather loot for me and its faster to loot one than search by myself ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
mastermind1337

Economy is certainly one part of the problem, the other is PvP meta. Loners doing PvE/tasks < loners hunting players < groups doing PvE/tasks < player hunting groups.

If you loot, do tasks, do PvE (especially with looting and without expensive suppressor), you make yourself vulnerable to PvP surprise. That surprise, if it happens, will probably kill you before you get a shot in, no matter what a fancy gun you have. So why bother bringing one?

If you have a buddy to watch your back while looting and good coordination with him, you have decent chance to survive a surprise attack attempt like that. But if the other player is good, losses are likely, and if he has a buddy, you are again probably screwed.

The irony here is that the people who focus on seeking out PvP inherently have better chances in an encounter, while people distracted by doing something else are vulnerable to the above.

What to do? At this point, i would say wait for the karma system and then see how that affects the PvP meta, especially for loners, because any further solutions, if needed, will need to be tailored to that.

Less players per map of course reduces chances of encountering other players, in turn making the risk of PvP surprise smaller.

More scavs make the utility of even a cheap gun higher, especially scavs are placed around good loot spots. But if there are geared campers and groups watching the spot, it just turns into a battle hotspot with the last man/group standing getting a prize and everyone else being dead.

Edited by mastermind1337

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
njdaemon
7 hours ago, WEGO_CAT said:

the reason of increasing number of hatchling players ( including me) this patch 

is the new yet another picking up random trash for traders quests 

(who want to lose his gear that worth 200 k or more when he search in toolboxs and duffel bags)

agreed.

tushonkas, car batteries, spark plugs, usb drives, etc... these are pointless fillers of the quests system and I refuse to lose my gear looking for them. 

1. I rather hatchet run to their known locations, put them in my secure container

2. Go loot weapon spawns and other valuable items and extract or die

3. sell the loot save the items

4. repeat repeat repeat until the stupid quest is complete

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
tobiassolem

Interesting discussion! 

But please remember, game design is not a democratic process. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Niahkl

i disagree that hatchlings are a problem at all. They do not disturb the game of others in any way, and there is nothing to be "fixed".

Taking risk by bringing gear is a player descision, it does not entitle to better loot. It only increases chances to survive engagements at the cost of movement speed and noise. You cannot expect to go in fully armored, playing it slow and still be the first at any point of interest.

Going in with a hatchet puts you in massive disadvantage when beeing engaged, even by scavs, but gives you the ability to move quick and silent, without risk.

I also the think effectiveness of both ways are accordingly balanced. Sure, you can put some attachements or gold chains in your container, maybe escape with 2 weapons and a pistol, but the geared player, if he survives, will always have the higher income and better loot.

When i play geared and slow, the marked room is still closed the majority of the games i go there for example, and i am still able to get out with ALOT of loot. Also, rare keys and items can also be found on skavs, which does finding them not limit to hatchet runs only.

On the argument of people want more PVP: PVP is not mandatory. A geared player can avoid combat alltogether. The game is not about PVP, its as advertisied, trying to survive by any means available. You want more PVP? play a PVP game instead.

For the point beeing killed by hatchet runners due to netcode: put a paca on, put a kolpac on, and you are basically invincible against hatchet runners. Whats the matter? The only circumstances when beeing killed by a hatchet runner are these: beeing unarmored on factory, or beeing snuck upon. In any case: netcode is the cause, not the hatchet running, or he simply outplayed you (succsessful snuck upon you, you missed the shots etc.). This is not a problem at all. I cannot recall being killed by a hatchling for a loooong time.

Other than that, hatchet running will be harder when there is a persistant health model between raids. Every other measure to decrease hatchet running will only punish the mid tier players the most (fee on death, nerf gamma container and all the nonsense).

personally i thik its fine, hatchet runs have thier place in this game and they create a certain variety and options that are real fun. I agree on the balance issues you mentioned though.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
galakty_
8 hours ago, neur0tix said:

All you need to get rid of hatchlings is player-driven economy and markets, not ruled by traders.

Hmmm... This might work. Economy in many PvP games is based on players and markets. Rare and good weapons are very expensinve, but common weapons are almost free. I know devs got statistics etc, but how they could know what price is good? Its an experiment, they cant adjust prices all the time, when players will adjust prices by their own. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mihailnovici
17 hours ago, WalrusJJones said:

Solving the hatchling plague isn't best done through punishing the strongest players, or the newest players, its making the next few rungs on the ladder up from hatchling a bit more intuitive to reach.

whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa .... realy ? lawl, that make me LOL allot because this is the "game" fault in first place, but hey if you talk about so much on the "hatchling" problem you know that also exploiters are the cause of them ? you know that even after the lateste changes ppl still run with  stacks of bags in the gama ? yet you complaing (and others) about the "medieval war"; isn't the player fault that the game have the problems: economy ,desync, lag, disconnetcs, bad mechanics and all this are a vicious circle that facilitate all this "medieval warriors" fiasco; yes and allot of players will stop getting "high amount of money" in raid and turn for "medieval warrior" ... kill a scav -> get his gear -> run for loot -> maybe get player kills -> extract with the payload this is the patern that will end up with "medieval warriors"; but now you get spawn -> run to hight loot rates & loot them -> "escape from tarkov"

PS and love this part to "IT IS BETA, you sign and payd for it to be part of it"  "git good"; so this will be changed in future, for sure on release they will adjust the problem, so till then sit down, stop qq about "medieval warriors" because is beta and ppl play ... forgot "TEST the "GAME""  how they find it more confortable

Edited by Mihailnovici

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
WalrusJJones
2 hours ago, tobiassolem said:

Interesting discussion! 

But please remember, game design is not a democratic process. :)

 

Indeed, if I can have this thread be thought provoking, and visible, that is its only real goal.

My polling is more for me to build an idea of areas where there is room for improvement, so that I could come to a better understanding of what I might talk about next, with some of the results being genuinely suprising.

1: I expected the community to have a greater desire to punish hatchlings.

2. People who believed economic factors were the cause of the hatchling plague had an astonishingly large rate of believed that economic adjustments shouldn't be made with them in mind.
 

 

 

 

On a side note.

In the main post, I said "Habit of using supressed weapons." It should be habit of unsupressed weapons. Specifically, its using an unsupressed weapon before the super-powerful players extract that has a 45% chance of being a suicide mission.

Edited by WalrusJJones

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ShowMeDeWai
2 hours ago, tobiassolem said:

Interesting discussion! 

But please remember, game design is not a democratic process. :)

Please remember that this is the suggestion forum and that suggestions should be taken by the dev's and the moderators as just that.  Suggestions from the community that are just as avid about the game as the dev's themselves are.  The mind hive always have more ideas than a single mind or a smaller hive.  They may not be better, they may not be "on track" but they could be something new and exciting that the dev's did not think of themselves.

This game is far FAR from complete.  The economy is completely broken if you can even call it that.  The "on the fly" adjustments that the dev's have made in the past are sometimes too far in the right or the wrong direction.  Just look at Dog Tags.  The higher level "gud" players had already gotten higher level and group farmed their tags for millions of rubles.  The rich got richer.  Then the dog tag nerf.  This allowed the richer to stay richer as now anyone plowing up the levels and just killing normal players, ie not dog tag farming with friends, is not getting what Richie Rich already got.  If the Dev's had really thought about the Dog Tag values, or consulted a real economist they would have realized that having a single slot item worth more than any 8-10 slot gun in the game was just...  Well stupid.  If the original Dog Tag values had been left in a level 50 player's tag would have been worth over 100k.  Really?  Who thought that through?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
tobiassolem
1 hour ago, ShowMeDeWai said:

Please remember that this is the suggestion forum and that suggestions should be taken by the dev's and the moderators as just that.  Suggestions from the community that are just as avid about the game as the dev's themselves are.  The mind hive always have more ideas than a single mind or a smaller hive.  They may not be better, they may not be "on track" but they could be something new and exciting that the dev's did not think of themselves.

This game is far FAR from complete.  The economy is completely broken if you can even call it that.  The "on the fly" adjustments that the dev's have made in the past are sometimes too far in the right or the wrong direction.  Just look at Dog Tags.  The higher level "gud" players had already gotten higher level and group farmed their tags for millions of rubles.  The rich got richer.  Then the dog tag nerf.  This allowed the richer to stay richer as now anyone plowing up the levels and just killing normal players, ie not dog tag farming with friends, is not getting what Richie Rich already got.  If the Dev's had really thought about the Dog Tag values, or consulted a real economist they would have realized that having a single slot item worth more than any 8-10 slot gun in the game was just...  Well stupid.  If the original Dog Tag values had been left in a level 50 player's tag would have been worth over 100k.  Really?  Who thought that through?

You are of course right, Sir. 

My experience tells me however that the "hive mind" (your words) sometimes become convinced that an idea is good by the simple foundation that there are many who have the same idea. That's what I was referring to in this instance. The idea has merit or not on its own, it does not require a large or small quantity of individuals to appreciate it. In fact, many great ideas start out as blasphemy or idiocy to begin with. 

And of course, some do not. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ShowMeDeWai
16 hours ago, tobiassolem said:

You are of course right, Sir. 

My experience tells me however that the "hive mind" (your words) sometimes become convinced that an idea is good by the simple foundation that there are many who have the same idea. That's what I was referring to in this instance. The idea has merit or not on its own, it does not require a large or small quantity of individuals to appreciate it. In fact, many great ideas start out as blasphemy or idiocy to begin with. 

And of course, some do not. :)

Ah, I got you now.  Random Hive mind #817 "I have an idea!  Lets make hatchlings run 10x faster!"  Big crowd of Hive minds "Yes Great idea!"  Dev's "Um  are these dudes smoking?!?!?!"  Just because a big group of people like the idea does not make it a good one, nor does it mean the dev's have to do it.

Thanks for clearing that up.  I mistook your original post a little.  Sorry, English is not my first language.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
WalrusJJones

I mean, the main points outlined on this thread started as blashphemy in another EFT community, then became somewhat accepted, and then I ported them out over to here to see if a lasting discussion refining them and making it better could be made.

 

Obviously, the original post only really addresses one tiny part of a larger issues of the games economy (or simply, an ecology, as it is now,) and it doesn't even address the whole of the one issue it spoke about in great depth: I totally ignored task hatchlings in my original post.

At the same time, I don't intend to address the ideas in the post in a democratic fashion, as I will reject amendments that I don't see having merit. You can see a lot of this in the original thread on reddit: The first several responses were talking about punishing hatchlings, and adding artificial restrictions to make it physically impossible to do a pure hatchet run. I chose to refute these posts for a good reason. I want to see hatchlings become "Full" players in game, I don't want to kick them out completely.

 

The poll here serves two purposes: One, if you ask people questions about your topic before they read it, they will better understand what they are reading is trying to accomplish.

The second is merely to understand my audience here in the suggestion forum.

Edited by WalrusJJones

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...
b38e7c858218a416ef714554dce933a2