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macpharlan

Could sure use a death cam after match

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Had a squad of 3, loaded out pretty well. Player came up from our 4 OClock and started firing. We all turned and started to attack.  He "jumped" forward closer killed one person, me and my mate both tossed grenades on each side of the bushes he was near, now he is on our right flank shooting at us. I line up a shot and take a knee and he turns and 'jumps' to the left out of my sites and kills my buddy.  I retreat and lay down in some bushes to heal and am somehow found and mowed down.

 

We thought there must have been at least 2 players since we were getting attacked from multiple angles, then we found we all died from the same player. Of course that does no good without proof, an after match replay of your death and the 30-60 seconds before would be huge.

 

I know it has been talked to death and many scream about it, but I really don't see why an after match play like PUBG has would damage the game, the positive for catching/reporting cheaters outweighs any downside that may exist by players losing their 'sweet spot'.   Yes this is a realistic game(with cheaters that makes it no longer realistic), but it is a game and it has cheaters, lets empower players to help find and eliminate them. Sorry if you lose your sweet spot or heaven forbid players learn from their betters.

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17 minutes ago, macpharlan said:

Had a squad of 3, loaded out pretty well. Player came up from our 4 OClock and started firing. We all turned and started to attack.  He "jumped" forward closer killed one person, me and my mate both tossed grenades on each side of the bushes he was near, now he is on our right flank shooting at us. I line up a shot and take a knee and he turns and 'jumps' to the left out of my sites and kills my buddy.  I retreat and lay down in some bushes to heal and am somehow found and mowed down.

 

We thought there must have been at least 2 players since we were getting attacked from multiple angles, then we found we all died from the same player. Of course that does no good without proof, an after match replay of your death and the 30-60 seconds before would be huge.

 

I know it has been talked to death and many scream about it, but I really don't see why an after match play like PUBG has would damage the game, the positive for catching/reporting cheaters outweighs any downside that may exist by players losing their 'sweet spot'.   Yes this is a realistic game(with cheaters that makes it no longer realistic), but it is a game and it has cheaters, lets empower players to help find and eliminate them. Sorry if you lose your sweet spot or heaven forbid players learn from their betters.

The forum rules ask you to utilize the search bar and look for similar threads before posting. If you already know this, which it appears, why even create another thread. They have on multiple occasions stated that they had no intention of adding a death cam. They are going for an authentic, hardcore and immersive shooter. How would a death cam fit into any of those criteria. However I wouldn't mind seeing a bodycam attachment that you could review(of course you could record yourself if you want) your view. I don't really care what Pubg does.

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3 minutes ago, zpwarrior said:

The forum rules ask you to utilize the search bar and look for similar threads before posting. If you already know this, which it appears, why even create another thread. They have on multiple occasions stated that they had no intention of adding a death cam. They are going for an authentic, hardcore and immersive shooter. How would a death cam fit into any of those criteria. However I wouldn't mind seeing a bodycam attachment that you could review(of course you could record yourself if you want) your view. I don't really care what Pubg does.

How do computer cheats figure into authentic, hardcore and immersive shooter's realism? It doesn't, it breaks all of it. So you may have to just add an element of non-realism to counter this. I don't care if it has been brought up a million times, this is a beta and more and more folks are coming on and it appears more and more folks are supporting this idea so it should be brought up.

Just because folks at the beginning of the game development don't like something does not mean it should not be revisited if more folks like it, we want the game to grown and have more voices, not less.

With more people comes more cheating, I don't wan't this game to die and I'll support any effort that helps in that area.

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3 minutes ago, macpharlan said:

How do computer cheats figure into authentic, hardcore and immersive shooter's realism? It doesn't, it breaks all of it. So you may have to just add an element of non-realism to counter this. I don't care if it has been brought up a million times, this is a beta and more and more folks are coming on and it appears more and more folks are supporting this idea so it should be brought up.

Just because folks at the beginning of the game development don't like something does not mean it should not be revisited if more folks like it, we want the game to grown and have more voices, not less.

With more people comes more cheating, I don't wan't this game to die and I'll support any effort that helps in that area.

I completely agree with this. If there's anything that's going to ruin the authentic, realistic, and immersive atmosphere they're going for, it's cheaters. Simply having the ability to review how you died (not where you were shot and who killed you) would improve my experience greatly. A bodycam won't do much for the cheaters you never see in the first place. 

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10 minutes ago, macpharlan said:

How do computer cheats figure into authentic, hardcore and immersive shooter's realism? It doesn't, it breaks all of it. So you may have to just add an element of non-realism to counter this. I don't care if it has been brought up a million times, this is a beta and more and more folks are coming on and it appears more and more folks are supporting this idea so it should be brought up.

Just because folks at the beginning of the game development don't like something does not mean it should not be revisited if more folks like it, we want the game to grown and have more voices, not less.

With more people comes more cheating, I don't wan't this game to die and I'll support any effort that helps in that area.

Um for one I havnt seen any post in quite some time to indicate the support for death cams has increased in any way. If it's about confirming if you died by a cheater or not, then it's not about death cams, it's about fixing their anti-cheat. Which I have heard they are reworking and is something i'm waiting on before returning. It's not like they implemented cheating and its part of the gameplay mechanics, what a silly argument. You might not care if its been brought up, but the mods and forum community dont like seeing the same post with the same answers posted for no reason.. Half of deathcams in games are quite off anyway so there would be once again more people claiming cheaters. The thing they need to focus on are their anticheat and optimization. Why should you get to know how you exactly died in a hardcore shooter that is as punishing as this. 

Edited by zpwarrior

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1 minute ago, zpwarrior said:

Um for one I havnt seen any post in quite some time to indicate the support for death cams has increased in any way. If it's about confirming if you died by a cheater or not, than it's not about death cams, it's about fixing their anti-cheat. Which I have heard they are reworking and is something i'm waiting on before returning. It's not like they implemented cheating and its part of the gameplay mechanics, what a silly argument. You might not care if its been brought up, but the mods and forum community dont like seeing the same post with the same answers posted for no reason.. Half of deathcams in games are quite off anyway so there would be once again more people claiming cheaters. The thing they need to focus on are their anticheat and optimization. Why should you get to know how you exactly died in a hardcore shooter that is as punishing as this. 

My argument was the fact that this game is growing and as more people come in some things may need to be revisited. The only argument I have seen against an after match death cam is that it may show 'how' someone killed you and you may learn from it. That does not seem like a bad thing to me, and it is far outweighed by the ability to catch a cheater.

As it sits now, if they implement a reporting system I fear they are going to get a lot of false reports and waste time. If I thought a match was fishy i'd rather confirm that it was a hack before reporting it.

I just want the game to grow and not drive folks away by cheaters. I know folks are PUBG haters, but it would be wrong to dismiss a good idea just because you don't like the game. Their after match cam was a great feature that helped track down the cheaters plaguing the game.

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18 minutes ago, macpharlan said:

My argument was the fact that this game is growing and as more people come in some things may need to be revisited. The only argument I have seen against an after match death cam is that it may show 'how' someone killed you and you may learn from it. That does not seem like a bad thing to me, and it is far outweighed by the ability to catch a cheater.

As it sits now, if they implement a reporting system I fear they are going to get a lot of false reports and waste time. If I thought a match was fishy i'd rather confirm that it was a hack before reporting it.

I just want the game to grow and not drive folks away by cheaters. I know folks are PUBG haters, but it would be wrong to dismiss a good idea just because you don't like the game. Their after match cam was a great feature that helped track down the cheaters plaguing the game.

Just because the community is growing, doesnt mean BSG is suddenly going to change their vision of the game. I'm so tired of people that just jump on the forums and demand things to change and their way is the only way. Do you know how many times I've seen post like yours that basically say "BSG you should do this or you will lose your customers". No the argument against it, is that it has no place in a game like this. Sorry if anything, the death cams would push people away from this game more than anything. Btw the thread you posted just reconfirms my point. Majority of the posters on their are against it.

Edited by zpwarrior

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20 minutes ago, zpwarrior said:

Um for one I havnt seen any post in quite some time to indicate the support for death cams has increased in any way. If it's about confirming if you died by a cheater or not, then it's not about death cams, it's about fixing their anti-cheat. Which I have heard they are reworking and is something i'm waiting on before returning. It's not like they implemented cheating and its part of the gameplay mechanics, what a silly argument. You might not care if its been brought up, but the mods and forum community dont like seeing the same post with the same answers posted for no reason.. Half of deathcams in games are quite off anyway so there would be once again more people claiming cheaters. The thing they need to focus on are their anticheat and optimization. Why should you get to know how you exactly died in a hardcore shooter that is as punishing as this. 

Calling something a silly argument isn't a very solid defense. It's a realistic request that I personally agree with. 

We all need to watch out that we don't stifle the game's potential just for the sake of familiarity. Good features like this exist in games like PUBG for a reason, and there's always a good (and tasteful) way to go about implementing them without threatening the realism. 

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Cheats is not something the devs brought in.  Cheats are exactly like the name suggests, cheats.  A program that gives a person a very big advantage over everybody else through means that were not implemented into the game.  The devs didn't say "here's some cheats, now go break our game that we created that's based off realism."  Just because a few people want kill cams so they can see how they die  doesn't mean the devs should implement it.  Even if the majority want it, they still shouldn't add it in.  There's plenty of FPS that don't come with kill cams.

With that said, I still say no.  The uncertainty and the unknown of this game makes it one step closer to realism.  There are other ways of catching cheaters without putting in a kill cam or after match cam and how BSG wants to do it is up to them (although the previous way of their "anti-cheat" was laughable and horrendous.)

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5 minutes ago, gehras said:

Calling something a silly argument isn't a very solid defense. It's a realistic request that I personally agree with. 

We all need to watch out that we don't stifle the game's potential just for the sake of familiarity. Good features like this exist in games like PUBG for a reason, and there's always a good (and tasteful) way to go about implementing them without threatening the realism. 

Holy crap, can we stop bringing  PUBG into the conversation regarding a hardcore authentic shooter. When pubg implemented their kill cam in the midst of their hacker problem, knowing that a hacker killed me did nothing for how I felt dying to a hacker. I still stopped playing that game because their optimization went to hell along with their anti cheat. The same goes for tarkov right now, the addition of a kill cam would do nothing but make me lose faith in BSG.

Edited by zpwarrior

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54 minutes ago, zpwarrior said:

Holy crap, can we stop bringing  PUBG into the conversation regarding a hardcore authentic shooter. When pubg implemented their kill cam in the midst of their hacker problem, knowing that a hacker killed me did nothing for how I felt dying to a hacker. I still stopped playing that game because their optimization went to hell along with their anti cheat. The same goes for tarkov right now, the addition of a kill cam would do nothing but make me lose faith in BSG.

I don't think anyone has suggested PUBG as a model for hardcore shooter? They simply pointed out an aspect of a game, a piece of software that was a positive to the game. I think for any discussion we need to have an open mind and look at all aspects, don't dismiss information just because you don't like the source. No the camera does not make you feel better about getting cheated, but reporting that person with evidence does :)

 

And by the way, if they can come up with an anti-cheat that takes care of the high majority of issues, I would not care.

Edited by macpharlan

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8 minutes ago, macpharlan said:

I don't think anyone has suggested PUBG as a model for hardcore shooter? They simply pointed out an aspect of a game, a piece of software that was a positive to the game. I think for any discussion we need to have an open mind and look at all aspects, don't dismiss information just because you don't like the source. No the camera does not make you feel better about getting cheated, but reporting that person with evidence does :)

It has alot to do with the genre and type of game. Pubg makes sense, same as call of duty and the other shooters that have it. I'm not dismissing it because I can't see your point, I just don't think your reasoning has any weight. I believe it has no place in a game like this, just like the devs. Once again your driving force behind this is to catch hackers. They don't need to add a kill cam for that. They need a better functioning anti cheat and better performance. Do you know how many kill cams with dysnc would look positively like a hacker? 

Edited by zpwarrior

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1 minute ago, zpwarrior said:

 Once again youre driving force behind this is to catch hackers. They don't need to add a kill cam for that. They need a better functioning anti cheat and better performance. Do you know how many kill cams with dysnc would look positively like a hacker? 

Completely agree, if the anti-cheat is good enough to take care of it then case closed, if not I think it is a valid option. If the game can't get the performance fixed it won't matter anyway.

Thanks for the discussion

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An after raid video that you can only watch once the time runs out in a raid is a great idea. It does not break immersion and to say to is a joke. 

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Sorry if I seemed a bit hostile. I'm used to people posting these and immediately hostile toward the forum community because alot of us disagree with it. However you guys haven't reacted in a rude way at all and I should have been a little more civil with the discussion. I think we all can agree that the best course of action for BSG is to get a handle on their anti-cheat and performance.

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Honestly I completely agree with this or some version of this but I need to address something else:

 

This is a forum, a place for discussion. We are the beta community, the early adopters. We should all be actively discussing ideas, concerns, issues, and pushing to see them implemented, tried, and tested so that we can in turn create a better product for the general public. I cringe every time I read some wannabe white knight jump down an OP's throat for perhaps duplicating a similar concern or retelling a separate unique encounter they had on the forums. I don't know if you want to impress the mods or just have OCD over digital forum organization and tidiness but quantity gets results. We don't have 10 main suggestion topics that are 482 pages long... and trying to kibosh discussion or immediately discredit people for not using the search button for anything other than a frequently asked question is just honestly not your job. Either contribute or ignore, if a moderator deems the post against a rule, I'm sure they will take care of it.

 

With that out of the way, I have had similar instances of incredibly questionable kills by solo players with low tier gear that have left my fully kitted friends and me scratching our heads. Unfortunately, unless I was screen capturing the entire match from each person's perspective, compiling it, editing it together, and submitting it myself, there is little to no recourse for these situations. Unfair play, especially in a game like Tarkov, can absolutely destroy any hope of a bountiful following. Now we are certain to expect this at this point in the game's development; we signed up for this. But with no way to address it, no way to document it, no way to verify suspicions or claims, and a constant attitude of "quit crying," "welcome to Tarkov," and, "no proof, locking thread," we are powerless to do something we actually paid good money to test, testing mind you, that other games do in house without putting the cost or time burden on their excited player base. (inb4 someone reads this part, cracks their knuckles, shuts off their mind, and furiously replies something along the lines of 'you weren't forced to buy it.') 

So where as I fully accept that we will have to endure these events, and don't begrudge the task in any way, shape, or form, I equally expect to be met half way in my efforts to improve this title. Similar instances like the aforementioned have occurred both prior to, and after, the anti-cheat introduction. Additionally, to presume that an anti-cheat system developed by a relatively small foreign developer has single-handedly obliterated any and all augmented game play for the foreseeable future is naive and or ignorant. Developers with innumerable times the budget of Battlestate have tried for decades and continue to fail. It is constant community vigilance, developer cooperation, and in-game tools, that create the best efforts to circumvent subversive efforts. This is the time to address these issues and test strategies, because when the general public on a full release start to permanently lose unrecoverable $400k+ load-outs to an individual flying around, one-shotting you from across the map, that already likely niche following will dissolve fast, and we will have nothing but fond memories of what could've been a great game. I really do hope there is some effort being made to work with the community on this and wholeheartedly apologize to the sweaty man reading this last portion, desperately trying to resist informing me that there is a thread, and I could've used the search feature to find it.

Thanks for reading.

Edited by smallgreenant
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46 minutes ago, smallgreenant said:

Honestly I completely agree with this or some version of this but I need to address something else:

 

This is a forum, a place for discussion. We are the beta community, the early adopters. We should all be actively discussing ideas, concerns, issues, and pushing to see them implemented, tried, and tested so that we can in turn create a better product for the general public. I cringe every time I read some wannabe white knight jump down an OP's throat for perhaps duplicating a similar concern or retelling a separate unique encounter they had on the forums. I don't know if you want to impress the mods or just have OCD over digital forum organization and tidiness but quantity gets results. We don't have 10 main suggestion topics that are 482 pages long... and trying to kibosh discussion or immediately discredit people for not using the search button for anything other than a frequently asked question is just honestly not your job. Either contribute or ignore, if a moderator deems the post against a rule, I'm sure they will take care of it.

 

With that out of the way, I have had similar instances of incredibly questionable kills by solo players with low tier gear that have left my fully kitted friends and me scratching our heads. Unfortunately, unless I was screen capturing the entire match from each person's perspective, compiling it, editing it together, and submitting it myself, there is little to no recourse for these situations. Unfair play, especially in a game like Tarkov, can absolutely destroy any hope of a bountiful following. Now we are certain to expect this at this point in the game's development; we signed up for this. But with no way to address it, no way to document it, no way to verify suspicions or claims, and a constant attitude of "quit crying," "welcome to Tarkov," and, "no proof, locking thread," we are powerless to do something we actually paid good money to test, testing mind you, that other games do in house without putting the cost or time burden on their excited player base. (inb4 someone reads this part, cracks their knuckles, shuts off their mind, and furiously replies something along the lines of 'you weren't forced to buy it.') 

So where as I fully accept that we will have to endure these events, and don't begrudge the task in any way, shape, or form, I equally expect to be met half way in my efforts to improve this title. Similar instances like the aforementioned have occurred both prior to, and after, the anti-cheat introduction. Additionally, to presume that an anti-cheat system developed by a relatively small foreign developer has single-handedly obliterated any and all augmented game play for the foreseeable future is naive and or ignorant. Developers with innumerable times the budget of Battlestate have tried for decades and continue to fail. It is constant community vigilance, developer cooperation, and in-game tools, that create the best efforts to circumvent subversive efforts. This is the time to address these issues and test strategies, because when the general public on a full release start to permanently lose unrecoverable $400k+ load-outs to an individual flying around, one-shotting you from across the map, that already likely niche following will dissolve fast, and we will have nothing but fond memories of what could've been a great game. I really do hope there is some effort being made to work with the community on this and wholeheartedly apologize to the sweaty man reading this last portion, desperately trying to resist informing me that there is a thread, and I could've used the search feature to find it.

Thanks for reading.

"cracks knuckles" you weren't forced to buy it.

Jokes aside i think like a UAV point of view of the raid would be a cool way to do kill cams with realism as i am sure in Tarkov we have multiple militaries survailing whats going on and that would be a really cool way of having a kill cam of a match while in keeping with realism.

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1 hour ago, Drunkcowboy said:

An after raid video that you can only watch once the time runs out in a raid is a great idea. It does not break immersion and to say to is a joke. 

How would you view the raid? From your own point of view? Record it yourself. From anyone's point of view? Now you have gained knowledge about their strategy, where they hide gear if they need to, how they play the game. How they accidentally glitched through a wall and now look like a no clipper. How about you view it from a floating camera. Now you can fly through the map and find where all loot spawns and where and when scavs spawn. All of this is immersion breaking 

 

Edit: Yes I saw you say it would be available only after the raid concludes.

Edited by Eragon284th

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terrible idea, as clans would use it to hunt down people that killed their memebers.

 

rather use your own recording software. Shadowplay from nividia is pretty ok.

 

 

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Your point of view of your death is not always indicative of what actually happened.

How and why would clans hunt down people that killed there members?

4 minutes ago, 2legs said:

terrible idea, as clans would use it to hunt down people that killed their memebers.

 

rather use your own recording software. Shadowplay from nividia is pretty ok.

 

 

 

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Allow me to easily defeat your objections whilst suggesting a system that maintains immersion. Almost every active duty guy I know has someone in the unit with a body or helmet cam. Some units are actually required to have them and don't have immediate access to said footage. It would be a perfectly believable scenario that a PMC soldier has a body camera that is inaccessible until recovered. This could be a similar time locked model not unlike the Scav's countdown. After each match, your video file is compiled by the server and access is provided to you within 10-30 minutes of the match. A system for flagging the match you wish to view is easily added. You subscribe to be notified when a specific match recording is available, though all of them will be temporarily store for a later decided upon amount of time. An option to store said files locally is also possible. The recording is from the perspective of your person and for reporting purposes you are provided you with necessary information such as a unique match identifier ad well as who participated in the raid, who you received damage from, and gave damage to at either the start or end of the recording. This file can be submitted to BSG where they have access to all angles to review the footage for their purposes. This adds a net of protection to their anti-cheat system, alerts them to possible new exploits whether natural or through outside programs, and gives the player a sense of vindication and the added ability to review their tactics with what went right and what went wrong in a raid either alone or with friends.

"Record it yourself" is not an option to everyone, nor is it reliable and creates a non uniform product of varying sizes and qualities that can be edited.

Also, anyone who wants to be vindictive already gets your name should they die by your hand and can do so without video documentation.

Plus having to activate my recording software breaks mah immursions just as much as having to "refresh" my traders does or infinitely stacking bags within one another. Let's not hang on that argument too much and actually provide useful suggestions rather than just swatting down ideas folks...

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Just now, kalurosu said:

???

why?, let us know your thoughts man

i think people who abuse glitches and bugs should not complain in the forum about smaller bugs that make the game problematic to enjoy, because they are the main reason other people enjoy the game less. but i decided to rewrite my post and then to delete it.

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This entire discussion has given me awful whiplash, I see people complaining about a death cam being "immersion breaking" and somehow using shadow-play isn't the same thing but worse?  Not everyone uses Nvidia anyways, so only people who use a certain kind of card can use shadow-play.  Arguing for immersion doesn't really matter when your immersion is being broken by cheating. You're just gonna have to be un-immersed for the short amount of time it takes to watch a death cam and come to a verdict, or- alternatively, just don't watch the death cam :) This is a beta, and until BSG has a effective way to combat cheaters %100 (or something close) a death cam would be a good (and reliable if done right) way to combat cheating for the while. 

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