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Players who ask for the mosin to be "budget priced" need to back up because they do not know what they are asking for.

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Players who ask for the mosin to be "budget priced" need to back up because they do not know what they are asking for.
 

  • All weapons should be priced by how useful they are, in this case, how fast it can kill. Any 7.62x51 or 7.62x54R ammo can one shot almost everything through any armor.
  • If the mosin would be priced "cheap" then it would cascade into several catastrophic consequences:
  • It would turn Woods into a one-shot point and click wasteland. The one shot part is not the problem, the weapon is powerful and that should not be "balanced". However the problem lies with armor. If any player is about to enter Woods, knowing it will be full of one-shot weapons regardless of armor, then players will skip bringing armor altogether and it will be only mosin players with no gear camping each other for 60 minutes. No one would bring hard gear into combat when it is safer to simply play the mosin one-point click hatchet run game.

This is why the Mosin MUST be prohibitively expensive, 150k+ so it becomes a luxury weapon. Instead of that perfect and cheap sniper rifle you can use to one shot equipped players while you camp in a bush without any armor. 

EDIT: Semi auto sniper rifles should get higher prices too, beyond 200k

Consider the following scenario, you see a player with heavy armor in Woods, he is not aware of you and he is taking cover behind a tree, at 150 meters. You have 2 choices:
 

  1. You use a mosin, line up a shot and cause serious damage, either destroying a limb or perforating his armor with one shot. He panics and runs away to save his precious gear.
  2. You use an SKS, line up a shot and hit him once, then he takes cover and you are stuck in a very violent gun battle because your target is now aware of you, in cover, and you still need to land 10+ hits to make it dead or run away.

A mosin will win the firefight on the first shot either by kill or enemy retreat. If the mosin is priced cheap for everyone to get all the time, then the game will turn into a point and click adventure, especially on large maps. Armor would not be fielded anymore because anyone with armor on a map full of mosin hatchet campers is a walking loot chest.

Edited by eftballistics
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This line of reasoning is literally the opposite of 'hardcore' gameplay.

Hardcore most simply means that the game will not do anything to make your life easier. Asking to artifically inflate the price of a Mosin to make it cost-prohibitive to defeat your armor is literally asking for them to make your life easier.

Also, woods is already a wasteland. People either camp random bushes or blitz through the gap on the the southern end of Sawmill.

Edited by Starlight
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Obviously we cannot completely say how the Mosin will perform, but we should be able to safely speculate at this stage it will likely sit somewhere around the level of it's closest nephew, the SV98.

As we know, currently in Tarkov it is only the round that determines the damage of the weapon and not the pressurization from the length and composition of the barrel that we hope to see later. As such, the ballistics of the shared 7.62X54mmR will likely be the same for the Mosin at least at introduction. 

Given the incredible risk of taking an SV98 into battle compared to the current results people are reporting of needing up to 7 hits to kill a fully armored player with a bolt action rifle, I get the impression that Mosin will already be a challenging weapon to convince one's self to take out.

 

Additionally, if we want to entertain the muh realism crowd, the abundance of this weapon in a soviet region doesn't support the cost prohibitive stance either as you can even pick one up in the states for around $350 USD. I understand your point about the implications of having this weapon become the new meta and wrecking people without much warning, but the meta ebbs and flows so frequently while the Devs try to balance the armor that we can't fear and treat it in this way. Of course we have all heard that prices are planned to eventually be dynamic, based on demand, however for the forseable future this will not be the case.

 

IMHO I feel like the Mosin should be available in two fashions, Prapor at around level 3 should have the option to both trade for a damaged or incomplete version, along with the more expensive standard version, but neither should be cost prohibitive. This is a bolt action rifle that predates the first world war and tons were produced. I think a lot of players haven even attempted using a bolt action yet and this platform should be an opportunity to give people a taste without breaking the bank. 

 

Also, I haven't ready any official information from the Devs about the Mosin yet so if I am incorrect in my speculations, my apologies and disregard.

Edited by smallgreenant
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1 hour ago, Starlight said:

This line of reasoning is literally the opposite of 'hardcore' gameplay.

Hardcore most simply means that the game will not do anything to make your life easier. Asking to artifically inflate the price of a Mosin to make it cost-prohibitive to defeat your armor is literally asking for them to make your life easier.

Also, woods is already a wasteland. People either camp random bushes or blitz through the gap on the the southern end of Sawmill.

That is actually a  very fair point in reality the mosin is so common you can buy a crate of them at something like 85 dollars for the hex receiver a rifle and you can take 10 off if its the round one which makes arming a bunch of dudes cheaply actually possible even more so that it fires a cheap and easy to find (mostly imports pending outside of Russia) round this is of course in the usa i would think in Russia itself they are more common (please tell me if i'm wrong but i was under the impression mosins get used for hunting rifles a lot) 

 

It should at least be added to the list of scav guns in incomplete format with a pricey scope in the trader at something like lvl 2 and a full one with the scope at lvl 2-3 if not being made a skier lvl 1 gun as it kinda fits if you can get an sks with no scope at the start of the game (mostly seen an better rifle than  the mosin in a number of ways semi auto, newer but still pretty common round, larger mag with options to mod being easier to come by, ) and until the recent "changes" 7,62 was a 3 tap though most things with ps ammo so giving people a chance to use a big boy rifle round is not really a problem even more so when you add cheap Russia surplus ammo that should be the only choice at lvl 1 traders (extra points for the big green tin you have to open with the tin opener and it comes in 540 rounds only) which be a real downgrade from normal ammo you would use with the sv-98 maybe being louder with more fouling (damage to rifle) and an increased chance to go wild or at least have some interesting quirks maybe a 1/25 dud chance for surplus ammo or even things like under powered rounds blocking the barrel meaning the next round might clear it, it might also blow the barrel and leave you looking like an cheap asshole :P 

Unless you get a clean hit with a pretty unwieldy rifle the bolt action (using the best ammo) chances are you will get you killed by people with automatic guns in close range, most likely longer ranges as well until you get to scope range. i would think and even then if you do not get a one shot kill chances are good they will be on your ass shoving the rifle up it before you will have gotten it cycled a few times as when trading rounds rate of fire can be used to keep someones head down a single shot rifle only really does that if the person using it manages to show they can hit you reliably if you leave cover or they have a few friends to keep up a rolling volley

Volume of fire matters a fair bit right now it looks like and with some new ammo to go with it the mosin doesn't have to be a 10k sv-98 but it could be close to something like it will no modem hardware for it until you get to higher trader lvls you could keep it pretty stock for the ones that lower lvl people are likely to find too keep it for becoming a way to deal with fort on the cheap (though for that you might wanna look at fire bombs even steel plates have a hard time protecting from burning petrol as many a cheaply made tank has found out+you could balance it by having it wreck most of the stuff they where carrying so no quick way to use something like that to nab easy fort at low lvl's )

 

now i want me an obrez so i can miss someone at room distance while still setting them on fire that would be something to complain about :P  

image.png.bfcc87845c4a9fc257aa004711cfaa23.png

 

edit*

also dont forget the mosin needs to be the pu sniper model to mount the pso scope without some tinkering going on i think you need to tap screws into the receiver or something like that as normally there is nothing to attach it to 

Edited by smokey-phil
extra stuff about pu model
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28 minutes ago, smokey-phil said:

[...]

now i want me an obrez so i can miss someone at room distance while still setting them on fire that would be something to complain about :P  

[...]

+1 for the Obrez. 

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When compared to M1A or RSASS the price can not be 150K+, where M1A is 70K roubles and has much higher moddability for lower recoil, handling and a much higher magazine capacity and rate of fire. The mosin has only very limited amount of bullets per magazine (like 5 or so?) and only slow fire rate. To actually hit and kill an enemy you have to aim properly, which is easier said than done. So you better have to carry a secondary weapon with you for close encounters.

I would suggest maybe 50 - 55K roubles for the mosin.

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You are telling us what 'would' happen with something that hasn't even been tried yet?

Shouldn't we wait to see how it goes before pretending to be omniscient and making terrible prophecies.

 

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vor 5 Stunden schrieb eftballistics:

You have 2 choices:
 

  1. You use a mosin, line up a shot and cause serious damage, either destroying a limb or perforating his armor with one shot. He panics and runs away to save his precious gear.
  2. You use an SKS, line up a shot and hit him once, then he takes cover and you are stuck in a very violent gun battle because your target is now aware of you, in cover, and you still need to land 10+ hits to make it dead or run away.

You only named 1 situation, which is at 150m distance. But my fights are in 80% of the case not 150+ meters away but closer, like in between 20 - 50 meters or inside of resort or interchange or factory. What about these? Here the SKS will win over the mosin because of 20 rounds instead of only 5 and a much higher rate of fire. Also with the ability to mount both a long range scope AND a red dot same time the SKS is usefull for long and close distances and everything between. With the new stock for SKS comming soon you will also have even more modding options for foregrips, reducing recoil and adding handling on the SKS. For the mosin there will most likely be not much (if any) modding available - so you can have 4x scope or iron sights. Maybe there is even no suppressor available so with SKS you can be sneeky and deadly while on the mosin you alert everybody with a single shot. For me the mosin should be a beginner sniper rifle in comparison to an more expensive (but modern) SV-98 or DVL.

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As long as the garbage rod is as supremely poo in the game as it is in real life, I'm fine with it being free.

"Sniper-grade" garbage rods could barely shoot 4 MoA (in this they were similar to most WW2 era bolt guns, with the added horribleness of using rimmed ammo like the Enfields, but with none of the smoothness of the Enfields or MAS36s), you'd get better accuracy off a crappy sporting rifle you bought at Walmart today.

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9 hours ago, ynnus86 said:

When compared to M1A or RSASS the price can not be 150K+, where M1A is 70K roubles and has much higher moddability for lower recoil, handling and a much higher magazine capacity and rate of fire. The mosin has only very limited amount of bullets per magazine (like 5 or so?) and only slow fire rate. To actually hit and kill an enemy you have to aim properly, which is easier said than done. So you better have to carry a secondary weapon with you for close encounters.

I would suggest maybe 50 - 55K roubles for the mosin.

Yes it holds 5 rounds but they can also bring in the modded stocks which allow it to have a 10 round mag then . The gun itself could cost around 30 to 50k roubles or be a peacekeeper gun for say around $300 . But you can unlock the tactical stock an mags at say level 3 and make it to where you have to hit the level which means no finding the stock an mag in raids like you can with the M1A . 

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You guys really do not see the problem? A mosin is the exact same thing as a sv98 in gameplay. It shoots sniper ammo. oOverexagerrated  accuracy drawbacks or lack of modern scopes are esoteric issues that will never matter. No one is going to say "Oh I need that extra level of accuracy at 600 meters, that is why I will use an SV98 instead."

Want proof? Compare the M1A to the RSASS. The same thing in gameplay. But the RSASS will never be used because it does the same thing at double the price and the possible advantages it might have in real life do not factor in below 200 meter combat. And the same will happen with teh mosin if it is too cheap.
And you guys are in for a surprise if you think the developers will make it inaccurate. Because the mosin's in accuracy is mostly western bias and the enemy at the gates movie.

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1 minute ago, eftballistics said:

Because the mosin's in accuracy is mostly western bias and the enemy at the gates movie.

Say what? Both TFB and Forgotten Weapons/InRange have done very good videos about the general horribleness of the Mosin, and why bolt guns are completely obsolete (and the awful accuracy is one of the main reasons).

Now, the devs may make it accurate, but then they're throwing the whole milsim idea out the window and going full CoD-mode.

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16 hours ago, eftballistics said:

Players who ask for the mosin to be "budget priced" need to back up because they do not know what they are asking for.
 

  • All weapons should be priced by how useful they are, in this case, how fast it can kill. Any 7.62x51 or 7.62x54R ammo can one shot almost everything through any armor.
  • If the mosin would be priced "cheap" then it would cascade into several catastrophic consequences:
  • It would turn Woods into a one-shot point and click wasteland. The one shot part is not the problem, the weapon is powerful and that should not be "balanced". However the problem lies with armor. If any player is about to enter Woods, knowing it will be full of one-shot weapons regardless of armor, then players will skip bringing armor altogether and it will be only mosin players with no gear camping each other for 60 minutes. No one would bring hard gear into combat when it is safer to simply play the mosin one-point click hatchet run game.

This is why the Mosin MUST be prohibitively expensive, 150k+ so it becomes a luxury weapon. Instead of that perfect and cheap sniper rifle you can use to one shot equipped players while you camp in a bush without any armor. 

EDIT: Semi auto sniper rifles should get higher prices too, beyond 200k

Consider the following scenario, you see a player with heavy armor in Woods, he is not aware of you and he is taking cover behind a tree, at 150 meters. You have 2 choices:
 

  1. You use a mosin, line up a shot and cause serious damage, either destroying a limb or perforating his armor with one shot. He panics and runs away to save his precious gear.
  2. You use an SKS, line up a shot and hit him once, then he takes cover and you are stuck in a very violent gun battle because your target is now aware of you, in cover, and you still need to land 10+ hits to make it dead or run away.

A mosin will win the firefight on the first shot either by kill or enemy retreat. If the mosin is priced cheap for everyone to get all the time, then the game will turn into a point and click adventure, especially on large maps. Armor would not be fielded anymore because anyone with armor on a map full of mosin hatchet campers is a walking loot chest.

Yes, yes, let us allow only the high-level players to have access to armor penetrating calibers, good armors, good helmets, good nades, good weapons and containers/bags/rigs. That sure will keep the game fun for anyone that isn't a lvl 40.

On all seriousness, high levels have got 7.62 x 51 semi-auto rifles and 7.62 x 54 modern bolt actions, why not just let low levels have access to an old not-as-good cheap alternative for all of the stuff that the higher-levels have? Having to fight squads of 3 players with forts, fast mts, ak 100s while going around alone with a vepr and a kolpak gets tiring after the first dozen deaths... 

Inb4 git gud. Hey I am just giving my inexpert opinion.

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vor 21 Minuten schrieb qwertyuio583:

Yes, yes, let us allow only the high-level players to have access to armor penetrating calibers, good armors, good helmets, good nades, good weapons and containers/bags/rigs. That sure will keep the game fun for anyone that isn't a lvl 40.

On all seriousness, high levels have got 7.62 x 51 semi-auto rifles and 7.62 x 54 modern bolt actions, why not just let low levels have access to an old not-as-good cheap alternative for all of the stuff that the higher-levels have? Having to fight squads of 3 players with forts, fast mts, ak 100s while going around alone with a vepr and a kolpak gets tiring after the first dozen deaths... 

Inb4 git gud. Hey I am just giving my inexpert opinion.

A player should not be guaranteed access to the best stuff all the time. If you run into a player that outmatches you in weapons and armor, improvise or run away. Try to understand, a mosin is the exact same as an SV98 ingame. Just as the M1A is the same as an RSASS.

This is part of the fun, not knowing what you might run into. This is not supposed to be a balanced and fair experience. Besides, even a "low" level player can quickly acquire 100k of cash. Kill a few scavs, grab their guns and sell it. This way you get at least 25k per raid, if you only kill 1-2 scavs. So if a mosin would cost 150k (and all other sniper rifles would be more expensive) then you have to work for bringing a mosin.

Because if not, if the mosin is avialable for everyone all the time, then running with a mosin to your favorite camp spot without any gear will be the new hatchet running and the game will be packed with mosin sprinters.

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vor 35 Minuten schrieb kartaugh:

Say what? Both TFB and Forgotten Weapons/InRange have done very good videos about the general horribleness of the Mosin, and why bolt guns are completely obsolete (and the awful accuracy is one of the main reasons).

Now, the devs may make it accurate, but then they're throwing the whole milsim idea out the window and going full CoD-mode.

Did they compare American bolt rifles to mosins and screw them tight to a table before shooting to measure? And did they repeat that with more than one rifle? Because there is giant patriotic bias against any russian hardware. So if BSG models a russian weapon to real world specifications western gamers will scream fake because hillbillies tested it in their backyards and claim "mosins are inaccurate". And even if mosins are that inaccurate, it would still be laser accurate at any practical ingame distance (below 300m). But western gamers will have this logarithmic warped idea of "mosin inaccurate" that they will demand it to be less accurate than a 9mm pistol.

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8 hours ago, kartaugh said:

As long as the garbage rod is as supremely poo in the game as it is in real life, I'm fine with it being free.

"Sniper-grade" garbage rods could barely shoot 4 MoA (in this they were similar to most WW2 era bolt guns, with the added horribleness of using rimmed ammo like the Enfields, but with none of the smoothness of the Enfields or MAS36s), you'd get better accuracy off a crappy sporting rifle you bought at Walmart today.

its not bad rifle 

 

its a 100 year old rifle that you can pick up for cheepsies and at about 1/6 the price of that sporting rifle and it fires 7.62 of course its gonna look bad compared to something that didn't come out come soviet ussr or even the imperial reign before that 

its a old rifle that does things that normally you pay a lot more for  like the "proper rifle round" and can normally be counted on going though nja 3+ plates with correct ammunition choice (need the api rounds that have an amour perpetrators and have an incendiary component to them ) 

its not something i would suggest taking into a firefight in real life unless you had no other option and with the limited fire rate and fact an m1a exists in game kinda means i'll take the one with semi auto if i can get it but if i can't get the m1a or rsass and i want to make use of that round for whatever reason i'll take a mosin and adapt how i play to it and be happy about it :P  

14 minutes ago, eftballistics said:

A player should not be guaranteed access to the best stuff all the time. If you run into a player that outmatches you in weapons and armor, improvise or run away. Try to understand, a mosin is the exact same as an SV98 ingame. Just as the M1A is the same as an RSASS.

This is part of the fun, not knowing what you might run into. This is not supposed to be a balanced and fair experience. Besides, even a "low" level player can quickly acquire 100k of cash. Kill a few scavs, grab their guns and sell it. This way you get at least 25k per raid, if you only kill 1-2 scavs. So if a mosin would cost 150k (and all other sniper rifles would be more expensive) then you have to work for bringing a mosin.

Because if not, if the mosin is avialable for everyone all the time, then running with a mosin to your favorite camp spot without any gear will be the new hatchet running and the game will be packed with mosin sprinters.

And currently you cant buy the ammo you need to run the mosin at lvl 1 thats a pretty good way of limiting it use dont you think ?

(correct me if wrong but i can't see 7,62x51mmR anywhere in the lvl 1 tabs) 

edit

Thats because the round is 7,62x54mmR not 51mm however i still cant see that either in lvl 1 traders

Edited by smokey-phil
got my ammo wrong :P

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vor 1 Minute schrieb smokey-phil:

And currently you cant buy the ammo you need to run the mosin at lvl 1 thats a pretty good way of limiting it use dont you think ?

(correct me if wrong but i can't see 7,62x51mmR anywhere in the lvl 1 tabs) 

Well, a new player is only level 1 for like a week. I don't think trader levels should even be a thing for long time pricing

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1 minute ago, eftballistics said:

Well, a new player is only level 1 for like a week. I don't think trader levels should even be a thing for long time pricing

But are not trader lvls the things stopping you from getting hold of the better guns. (aside from quest locks) money is not a great limiting factor for the reasons you pointed you out also without access to anything capable of taking on people with access to the better gear they will be trader lvl 1 for a lot longer.

 

also people tend to take longer than a week to get past lvl 1 traders if you dont sell all your eod gear and start with rep bonuses :P 

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vor 2 Minuten schrieb smokey-phil:

But are not trader lvls the things stopping you from getting hold of the better guns. (aside from quest locks) money is not a great limiting factor for the reasons you pointed you out also without access to anything capable of taking on people with access to the better gear they will be trader lvl 1 for a lot longer.

 

also people tend to take longer than a week to get past lvl 1 traders if you dont sell all your eod gear and start with rep bonuses :P 

The mosin will be too good at killing players to be cheap. Here is what will happen: Players will figure out they can run faster with no body armor. So they buy one mosin, one mag, and sprint to their favorite camp spot. They can move 20-35% faster than heavy armor players. Then they one shot them, and the armor players will stop using armor and try the same thing. Then everyone will skip most of the weapons because all you need to instantly kill a player is one good shot and some distance. So why bother with heavy armor then. Or any armor. Or any gear beyond a mosin. 

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13 minutes ago, eftballistics said:

The mosin will be too good at killing players to be cheap. Here is what will happen: Players will figure out they can run faster with no body armor. So they buy one mosin, one mag, and sprint to their favorite camp spot. They can move 20-35% faster than heavy armor players. Then they one shot them, and the armor players will stop using armor and try the same thing. Then everyone will skip most of the weapons because all you need to instantly kill a player is one good shot and some distance. So why bother with heavy armor then. Or any armor. Or any gear beyond a mosin. 

Then why didn't i see this happen all the time with a vepr's and ap ammo that worked about the same until the last patch?

Your post is missing the words "I think" you cannot be sure of any of this yet it's not happened yet.

Also with no body armour it's basically a one shot kill with most decent guns, i think  you would see people  using more hp ammo on people who chose to come in with no protection and one shot them just as well as easily.

No one said the scope would be part of the rifle. (the pictures show it sure but thats no proof.) 

The sks does not come with a scope from the traders, so assuming the mosin will is a bit of a leap as far as i consider even more so as i pointed out you need the pu sniper model unless you wanna do some screw tapping and "hardcore-ish" gun modding to mount a scope.

The sks comes in 2 types one with scope one with no mounting space for the dovetail like in real life.

I think the mosin will as well just like in real life.

Edited by smokey-phil
for readability 2 electric punctuation marks
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The mosin is balanced by the same reason it's obsolete in real life: Heavy, only 5 rounds capacity, slow fire rate and compared to polymer, it degrades quickly. 

If you have bad aim you will die. Simple as that. If you have good aim then you deserve the loot from the kill. Simple as that. 

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4 hours ago, eftballistics said:

A player should not be guaranteed access to the best stuff all the time. If you run into a player that outmatches you in weapons and armor, improvise or run away. Try to understand, a mosin is the exact same as an SV98 ingame. Just as the M1A is the same as an RSASS.

This is part of the fun, not knowing what you might run into. This is not supposed to be a balanced and fair experience. Besides, even a "low" level player can quickly acquire 100k of cash. Kill a few scavs, grab their guns and sell it. This way you get at least 25k per raid, if you only kill 1-2 scavs. So if a mosin would cost 150k (and all other sniper rifles would be more expensive) then you have to work for bringing a mosin.

Because if not, if the mosin is avialable for everyone all the time, then running with a mosin to your favorite camp spot without any gear will be the new hatchet running and the game will be packed with mosin sprinters.

Why would a mosin have to be 150k though? An SKS is 20k and people still prefer to hatchet run over taking that in. The handguns are all dirt cheap and no one brings them in. Mosins should be a cheap 1-shot against unarmored. Why not? We already have the TOZ that does the SAME THING. Should the TOZ or any shotgun for that matter, be 150k+? You can put a scope on a shotgun, load it with slug rounds which have the highest base damage by a large margin, and boom. Instant op weapon. 

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40 minutes ago, Eragon284th said:

Why would a mosin have to be 150k though? An SKS is 20k and people still prefer to hatchet run over taking that in. The handguns are all dirt cheap and no one brings them in. Mosins should be a cheap 1-shot against unarmored. Why not? We already have the TOZ that does the SAME THING. Should the TOZ or any shotgun for that matter, be 150k+? You can put a scope on a shotgun, load it with slug rounds which have the highest base damage by a large margin, and boom. Instant op weapon. 

ban slugs unplayable op superassultweapon :P 

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20 hours ago, smokey-phil said:

It should at least be added to the list of scav guns in incomplete format

How does an incomplete Mosin work??? :benoway:
Is it missing the magazine, so you can only shoot 1 at a time?
I think a Mosin is technically field stripped in 1 move. :bewhink:
Do agree that scavs should carry, maybe even more than an SKS, but I digress. :begood:

22 hours ago, eftballistics said:

Players who ask for the mosin to be "budget priced" need to back up because they do not know what they are asking for.

While I do understand where youre coming from, Mosins are cheaper than toilet paper in America... I imagine most babies in Russia are born holding one. :begreat: 

By this notion, the Makarov should be 10x the price because it can one shot kill you, even with Fort/Fast.(if youre good enough to line up that domer.) 

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