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TheColdVein

Armor & Blunt Damage

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TheColdVein

Dear Escapers, 

We would like to take this time to clear up the current question of armor parameters. Right now, blunt damage is in, but it is significantly lowered. We are balancing and testing slowly as we are adding new armor as well. We apologize for any frustration, and we appreciate your support!

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blackzombie79

Thanks for the information! I love this game, so I am fine with progressing slowly and making sure its right!

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lowcrawl

Thank you for the continuous updates! Always great to have a running conversation with BSG  through these updates. Keep the updates flowin - you guys rock!

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eftballistics

I hope devs are using real world data and stick to that instead of the shotgun SJWs going "sheer force" of a slug having to make people explode behind 6b43.

What I measured so far is that a PACA gets 16 health damage behind the slug. That might be too much if regular 5.45 does not do the same. Because a regular 5.45 should have 2x the kinetic energy and therefore "sheer force" hitting the vest. A shotgun slug does not have nearly enough energy to "break ribs" if the vest is hard enough.
 

Edited by eftballistics
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BOOSTER_ZA
2 hours ago, eftballistics said:

I hope devs are using real world data and stick to that instead of the shotgun SJWs going "sheer force" of a slug having to make people explode behind 6b43.

What I measured so far is that a PACA gets 16 health damage behind the slug. That might be too much if regular 5.45 does not do the same. Because a regular 5.45 should have 2x the kinetic energy and therefore "sheer force" hitting the vest. A shotgun slug does not have nearly enough energy to "break ribs" if the vest is hard enough.
 

I don't think you are correct about 5.45 having 2x the kinetic energy of a slug. You need to take mass and velocity into account. I believe shotgun slugs are much heavier and therefore can travel at a lower velocity and yet have the same kinetic energy as a 5.45.

KE = 0.5 x mv2

 

Screenshot attached is from this source: http://wredlich.com/ny/2013/01/projectiles-muzzle-energy-stopping-power/

muzzle-energy.png

Edited by BOOSTER_ZA

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eftballistics
vor 34 Minuten schrieb BOOSTER_ZA:

I don't think you are correct about 5.45 having 2x the kinetic energy of a slug. You need to take mass and velocity into account. I believe shotgun slugs are much heavier and therefore can travel at a lower velocity and yet have the same kinetic energy as a 5.45.

KE = 0.5 x mv2

Kinetic energy for a  5.45 should be ~1500 Joules. The average solid slug is less than 800 I believe? This calculation already includes mass and velocity.
The whole idea that a slug has more  "sheer force" is an exagerration as it flies much slower.

Edited by eftballistics

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BOOSTER_ZA
8 hours ago, eftballistics said:

Kinetic energy for a  5.45 should be ~1500 Joules. The average solid slug is less than 800 I believe? This calculation already includes mass and velocity.
The whole idea that a slug has more  "sheer force" is an exagerration as it flies much slower.

Uh no.. A simple google search "shotgun slug kinetic energy" reveals that the Kinetic energy is around what the table I attached above is- 4200 J

 

This obviously deteriorates greatly over distance.

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eftballistics
vor 11 Stunden schrieb BOOSTER_ZA:

Uh no.. A simple google search "shotgun slug kinetic energy" reveals that the Kinetic energy is around what the table I attached above is- 4200 J

 

This obviously deteriorates greatly over distance.

No, these 4200 are extra armor piercing slugs. A regular slug is not more than 800.

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DutchF1nest050

thx 4 clearing up devs. 

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smokey-phil
3 hours ago, eftballistics said:

No, these 4200 are extra armor piercing slugs. A regular slug is not more than 800.

Lets see your data source then if your going to claim that please.

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TheColdVein
On 7/6/2018 at 5:17 AM, eftballistics said:

I hope devs are using real world data and stick to that instead of the shotgun SJWs going "sheer force" of a slug having to make people explode behind 6b43.

What I measured so far is that a PACA gets 16 health damage behind the slug. That might be too much if regular 5.45 does not do the same. Because a regular 5.45 should have 2x the kinetic energy and therefore "sheer force" hitting the vest. A shotgun slug does not have nearly enough energy to "break ribs" if the vest is hard enough.
 

This guy has a great channel and addresses a lot of this.
 

 

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eftballistics
vor 1 Minute schrieb Colonel Twerkins:

This guy has a great channel and addresses a lot of this.
 

 

A regular steel core 5.45 has almost 2x the kinetic energy and would go through the vest and then shatter the cinder block. It is a simple fact, a regular solid slug has nowhere near the same kinetic energy and therefore "sheer force" when hitting a vest. So a 5.45 would have to do far more blunt force damage. Real world data, not warped misconceptions on how "sheer" the force is.

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EdwardLeaf

A 5.45 doesnt do "blunt" damage to PACA since it simply penetrates soft armor. A slug on the other hand is a 12mm or so metal projectile that gets stopped by the vest, a vest that is soft and malleable which means the damage will not be distributed across the surface of the vest but instead will deform one part of the vest and push into the person on that part.

This is why a armor plate is much better at protecting from kinetic damage than a soft body armor, the plate distributes the force throughout its area beacuse its not as malleable as a kevlar/aramid vest. 

Kinetic force stops doing damage as soon as the target fails to stop the round. This is why over-penetration can be problematic since a lot of the kinetic force is lost if the projectile simply goes cleanly through. 

So in conclusion, the damage through PACA is quite realistic, a 5.45x39 shouldnt be stopped by it and thus wouldnt cause kinetic/blunt damage, but a slug on the other hand would get stopped by the vest which means a lot more of the kinetic/blunt damage gets delivered to the target instead of being delivered to whatever the bullet hits that is behind the target.

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EdwardLeaf
20 minutes ago, eftballistics said:

A regular steel core 5.45 has almost 2x the kinetic energy and would go through the vest and then shatter the cinder block. It is a simple fact, a regular solid slug has nowhere near the same kinetic energy and therefore "sheer force" when hitting a vest. So a 5.45 would have to do far more blunt force damage. Real world data, not warped misconceptions on how "sheer" the force is.

Steel core 5.45 has around 1300-1500 Joules of energy.

A shotgun slug flying at 1800fps/550ms(typical velocity achieved by a 12g slug) has around 3000 Joules.

#checkyoselfbeforeyouwreckyoself

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eftballistics
vor 1 Minute schrieb EdwardLeaf:

Steel core 5.45 has around 1300-1500 Joules of energy.

A shotgun slug flying at 1800fps/550ms(typical velocity achieved by a 12g slug) has around 3000 Joules.

#checkyoselfbeforeyouwreckyoself

A solid lead slug (which I assume is the one in EFT) has nowhere near 3000 Joules.

 

But about the previous point, blunt force has to be proportional and according to real data. Not to emotional subjective ideas. Because the EFT community is full of that now. Any assault rifle and beyond bullet will chop through cinder blocks. A heavy slug might do that too, but until the developers clearly specify what slug is what is in EFT I am not buying that it has 3000 joules.

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lolinking
1 hour ago, EdwardLeaf said:

Steel core 5.45 has around 1300-1500 Joules of energy.

A shotgun slug flying at 1800fps/550ms(typical velocity achieved by a 12g slug) has around 3000 Joules.

#checkyoselfbeforeyouwreckyoself

Let's make some calculation:

Take your average slug, 1 oz flying at 370 m/s according to the ammo chart.

Kinetic energy = 1/2 *m *v² gives us 1940 joules of kinetic energy for a 12 g slug

A steel core 5.45 however according to wikipedia this time has "only" around 1400 joules of kinetic energy

Edited by lolinking

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EdwardLeaf
1 hour ago, eftballistics said:

A solid lead slug (which I assume is the one in EFT) has nowhere near 3000 Joules.

 

But about the previous point, blunt force has to be proportional and according to real data. Not to emotional subjective ideas. Because the EFT community is full of that now. Any assault rifle and beyond bullet will chop through cinder blocks. A heavy slug might do that too, but until the developers clearly specify what slug is what is in EFT I am not buying that it has 3000 joules.

 

26 minutes ago, lolinking said:

Let's make some calculation:

Take your average slug, 1 oz flying at 370 m/s according to the ammo chart.

Kinetic energy = 1/2 *m *v² gives us 1940 joules of kinetic energy for a 12 g slug

A steel core 5.45 however according to wikipedia this time has "only" around 1400 joules of kinetic energy

"Shotgun slugs (12 gauge) achieve typical velocities of approximately 1800 fps for 1-oz. (437.5 grain) slugs, for an energy of over 3,100 ft-lbs (4200 J)."

-Wikipedia

(Havent been able to find any info on Baikal slugs unfortunately)

Edited by EdwardLeaf
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lolinking
8 minutes ago, EdwardLeaf said:

 

"Shotgun slugs (12 gauge) achieve typical velocities of approximately 1800 fps for 1-oz. (437.5 grain) slugs, for an energy of over 3,100 ft-lbs (4200 J)."

-Wikipedia

(Havent been able to find any info on Baikal slugs unfortunately)

You are totally right but i used the ingame value provided by the ammo chart given that we are talking about in game content

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sadstuart

Youd think that shotguns being 1/3rd of this game theyd have more than 2 ammo types and the armor worked out, its not that complicated.

Also i can go to any store around here (walmart ,farm store ,ect) and get every variety of slug, 3 inch magnum shells , ect . youd think that military contractors who have access to glocks with more attachments than anyone would ever put on a side arm and as vals could be able to access a walmart haha.

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TheColdVein
12 hours ago, sadstuart said:

Youd think that shotguns being 1/3rd of this game theyd have more than 2 ammo types and the armor worked out, its not that complicated.

 

4

Thank you for being so optimistic, but it's not that easy either. :) 

 

12 hours ago, sadstuart said:

youd think that military contractors who have access to glocks with more attachments than anyone would ever put on a side arm and as vals could be able to access a walmart haha.
 

4

You would think. But again, there is more to the story. There is also more to be added. So it remains to be seen what rounds will be added for the shotguns. But you could speculate...this is what the previous project (Contract Wars) has. ;) 

http://prntscr.com/k4msna

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Insomnium1981
Am 8.7.2018 um 16:43 schrieb EdwardLeaf:

A slug on the other hand is a 12mm or so

12 gauge. That is completely different. It´s a fractal ( 1⁄12) of a pound of lead, so if the gauge goes up, it increases in size, thus 12ga is a bigger diameter than 16ga. 
12ga = 18,53 mm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun_shell  <-- check out "sizes"

 

Am 8.7.2018 um 16:51 schrieb eftballistics:

Not to emotional subjective ideas.

Yeah... so show us your math and sources, then.
Mine looks like this:

(all sources from wikipedia)
Muzzle velocity  of a Mossberg 500
1,325 ft/s (404 m/s) for 12-gauge, 23⁄4", 00 buckshot load
- 1,560 ft/s (480 m/s) for 12-gauge 437-grain rifled slug ( ~ 1 oz. = 28,35 gramms)
 
E = 1/2m * v²

E = 0,014175 kg * 230400 m/s

E = 3265,92 J = 3.266 kJ

The kinetic energy of a 1oz slug fired from a mossberg 590 is somewhere around 3.2 kilo Joule.
You can substract some Joules for the rotation that might occur...

I guess there also might be a missunderstanding about "sheer". It has multiple meanings, like: "That's sheer madness." and "By its sheer force". The later example can be paraphrased into: "By its raw power" and "By its cutting ability". This seems to be happening here...
No one tries to insist that a slug "cuts" or sheers through armor. It is just a huge and fast chunk of lead that will hurt a target badly if it only has soft body armor on.
 

 

Edited by Insomnium1981

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EdwardLeaf
6 hours ago, Insomnium1981 said:

12 gauge. That is completely different. It´s a fractal ( 1⁄12) of a pound of lead, so if the gauge goes up, it increases in size, thus 12ga is a bigger diameter than 16ga. 
12ga = 18,53 mm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun_shell  <-- check out "sizes"

Already knew that, just bad recollection of 12 gauge being about 12mm i guess, but cheers anyway :begreat:

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sadstuart

I'd also wager that a slug to the head would knock someone out most if not all the time , no matter the amount of armor. 

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eftballistics
vor 1 Stunde schrieb sadstuart:

I'd also wager that a slug to the head would knock someone out most if not all the time , no matter the amount of armor. 

It would stagger the person, but it would not knock them out. Most of the energy is absorbed by the helmet and the rest will keep flying with the slug when it deflects.

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