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Gh0stB0nes

Stop the Balancing Act

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Gh0stB0nes

When it comes to gear and load-outs in a hardcore tactical shooter, the performance and cost should match as close to possible as real world values. I understand that many people are dissatisfied with the idea that a fairly inexpensive rifle has been released that is capable of utilizing, probably the best, ammunition in game and in real life to defeat armor. This crowd of people are enraged only because of their inability to recognize the fact that with new equipment in play, their methods and tactics of play must change. 

I am a believer that the ammunition is the important factor in the defeat of any target where the platform it is fired from mainly affects velocity of the ammo and anything related to modifying the ergonomics, handling, and mounting of attachments. People pay for the platform they shoot. The cost of the platform is often dictated by the age, numbers in circulation, prevalence in region.

The Mosin-Nagant 91/30 is a rifle that has been service since 1891 and has extremely high production numbers. I purchased one in real-life from a gun store four years ago for $95 USD all taxes included. The only reason real-life prices for this platform in the United States skyrocketed recently is because of the current low importation numbers. US prices after importation taxes and transfer fees they can still be had for around $200 (12983 RUB). BattleState went with a model that has a bent bolt and is drilled and tapped for mounting PU optics. Considering Escape From Tarkov takes place in Russia the original in-game price is more than fair and accurate.

BattleState has done a great job with the research applied to implementing different types ammunition and weapons. Do not let all of this time and research be squandered to people claiming things not being fair. Armor does not make you invincible. Players take note, that unless wearing plated armor, many types will be defeated by much of what people use in game. The US Army only in the past few years getting helmets capable of stopping 7.62x39 without the wearer getting knocked unconscious. Fights are typically unfair. The sense of accomplishment comes from using whatever you have available to defeat any adversary you face or knowing when to run. 

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ShiroTenshi

Tarkov is cut out from the rest of world. There's no steady stream of supplies, no rule of law, no security. This means the economy inside the exclusion zone will be different then current real world economy. Don't think a real world pricing view is very realistic. They will have different values for things we take for granted and so on.

While i have no issues with what you say in this post, i must point out that the goal eventually is for the economy to be responsive to player actions. With the dynamic economy, prices and availability will rise and fall depending on the players, so in effect the market will regulate itself.

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Gh0stB0nes

I understand and love this idea of a dynamic economy. This just does not address why an item that should have a high prevalence in region and be less sought after, has a price comparable to more modern and desired platforms. Maybe I am missing something. 

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AlJabberwock

Hey @Gh0stB0nes, liked your OP. 

What ShiroTenshi is saying is that part of the planned dynamic of unpredictable stocks of anything in a limited size, cut-off region, is the inability to link what you think prices and supplies ought to be to what they are.  In game lore, Tarkov isn't really Russia because it has become isolated. 

Like hyperinflation in economies where foreign exchange has been limited to government only, and price freezes imposed, where price cannot control supply, first price and then supply show that demand is beyond what the market can meet.  In your own, and very reasonable OP, which I generally agree with, you show the reason price has doubled in the US.  Now imagine NO supply could reach the US, and NO foreign exchange corrections were allowed.  Price would go through the roof, and then, none would be available (for US dollars, anyway). 

If we cycle back to the random price fluctuations imposed by the devs from time to time prior to wipes, this is only a taste of what unpredictable impacts might take place in a very limited (microscopic, really) economy for the slightest of flutters of supply. 

Vlad drove his weekly peddler truck off the road, and was unable to meet the shift of guards he pays off. No 'good x' this week... or maybe it's MONTH...  Larry got drunk and fell off the roof.  He is the guy that knew where to find bleach for the duty-roster's undies.  Undies don't get laundered with bleach for now, presto, more bleach for everyone else.   

Welcome to chaos, which we already know by the name 'Tarkov'.  It isn't Russia's economy, even if it is IN Russia. 

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p4nnus
On 10/1/2018 at 11:36 PM, Gh0stB0nes said:

When it comes to gear and load-outs in a hardcore tactical shooter, the performance and cost should match as close to possible as real world values. I understand that many people are dissatisfied with the idea that a fairly inexpensive rifle has been released that is capable of utilizing, probably the best, ammunition in game and in real life to defeat armor. This crowd of people are enraged only because of their inability to recognize the fact that with new equipment in play, their methods and tactics of play must change. 

I am a believer that the ammunition is the important factor in the defeat of any target where the platform it is fired from mainly affects velocity of the ammo and anything related to modifying the ergonomics, handling, and mounting of attachments. People pay for the platform they shoot. The cost of the platform is often dictated by the age, numbers in circulation, prevalence in region.

BSG has done a great job with the research applied to implementing different types ammunition and weapons. Do not let all of this time and research be squandered to people claiming things not being fair. Armor does not make you invincible. Players take note, that unless wearing plated armor, many types will be defeated by much of what people use in game. The US Army only in the past few years getting helmets capable of stopping 7.62x39 without the wearer getting knocked unconscious. Fights are typically unfair. The sense of accomplishment comes from using whatever you have available to defeat any adversary you face or knowing when to run. 

While I agree on the realism part, I agree more with what ShiroTenshi said. The weapon should perform exactly as realistically as its possible to be simulated, but the economy is fictional, as the game is set in a fictional area/situation.

Before the player driven economy, before the possible change in Mosins place in the economy, it needs to sit at the right place performance wise. This is absolutely top priority. 

You speak a lot about realism, but dont address the fact that 7.62x54R is way too powerful against type 5 and 6 armors. The overly-high Blunt DMG plays a big part in this, unrealistically too, but the pen values are way too high as well, against those fore-mentioned armors.

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Gh0stB0nes
On 10/8/2018 at 11:33 AM, p4nnus said:

While I agree on the realism part, I agree more with what ShiroTenshi said. The weapon should perform exactly as realistically as its possible to be simulated, but the economy is fictional, as the game is set in a fictional area/situation.

Before the player driven economy, before the possible change in Mosins place in the economy, it needs to sit at the right place performance wise. This is absolutely top priority. 

You speak a lot about realism, but dont address the fact that 7.62x54R is way too powerful against type 5 and 6 armors. The overly-high Blunt DMG plays a big part in this, unrealistically too, but the pen values are way too high as well, against those fore-mentioned armors.

Sorry for the late reply. Unless the information regarding the level 6 armor on the Wiki at https://escapefromtarkov.gamepedia.com/6B43_6A_Armor is incorrect, I have to disagree with your argument that the penetration values are too high. From my understanding of the wiki, the only armor currently in the game is soft body armor. The armor is capable of carrying plates that will later be implemented in-game. If this is true, the max the armor can currently be rated is IIIA. When AR500 plates get implemented, this armor in addition to the IIIA protection of the carrier should probably stop penetration of a 7.62x54r fired from a Mosin-Nagant rifle. Consider that surplus 7.62x54r AP rounds fired from a 91/30 will penetrate a lone 1/4in AR500 plate. The non AP rounds will not penetrate the AR500 but will definitely go through the soft body armor. 

 

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p4nnus
On 10/12/2018 at 11:44 PM, Gh0stB0nes said:

Sorry for the late reply. Unless the information regarding the level 6 armor on the Wiki at https://escapefromtarkov.gamepedia.com/6B43_6A_Armor is incorrect, I have to disagree with your argument that the penetration values are too high. From my understanding of the wiki, the only armor currently in the game is soft body armor. The armor is capable of carrying plates that will later be implemented in-game. If this is true, the max the armor can currently be rated is IIIA. When AR500 plates get implemented, this armor in addition to the IIIA protection of the carrier should probably stop penetration of a 7.62x54r fired from a Mosin-Nagant rifle. Consider that surplus 7.62x54r AP rounds fired from a 91/30 will penetrate a lone 1/4in AR500 plate. The non AP rounds will not penetrate the AR500 but will definitely go through the soft body armor. 

It stopped 7 rounds of 7.62x54R AP, and the 8th and 10th shot penetrated in a IRL test. 6B43 has aramid plates, so its not a soft armor. BSG have promised to create a realistic game and damage/pen values havent been used as a balancing act yet, so I doubt it will happen now or later. So I think its gonna be tweaked and 7.62x54R pen values lowered.

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Carlos_Halfcock

 

On 10/1/2018 at 1:36 PM, Gh0stB0nes said:

When it comes to gear and load-outs in a hardcore tactical shooter, the performance and cost should match as close to possible as real world values. I understand that many people are dissatisfied with the idea that a fairly inexpensive rifle has been released that is capable of utilizing, probably the best, ammunition in game and in real life to defeat armor. This crowd of people are enraged only because of their inability to recognize the fact that with new equipment in play, their methods and tactics of play must change. 

I am a believer that the ammunition is the important factor in the defeat of any target where the platform it is fired from mainly affects velocity of the ammo and anything related to modifying the ergonomics, handling, and mounting of attachments. People pay for the platform they shoot. The cost of the platform is often dictated by the age, numbers in circulation, prevalence in region.

The Mosin-Nagant 91/30 is a rifle that has been service since 1891 and has extremely high production numbers. I purchased one in real-life from a gun store four years ago for $95 USD all taxes included. The only reason real-life prices for this platform in the United States skyrocketed recently is because of the current low importation numbers. US prices after importation taxes and transfer fees they can still be had for around $200 (12983 RUB). BattleState went with a model that has a bent bolt and is drilled and tapped for mounting PU optics. Considering Escape From Tarkov takes place in Russia the original in-game price is more than fair and accurate.

BattleState has done a great job with the research applied to implementing different types ammunition and weapons. Do not let all of this time and research be squandered to people claiming things not being fair. Armor does not make you invincible. Players take note, that unless wearing plated armor, many types will be defeated by much of what people use in game. The US Army only in the past few years getting helmets capable of stopping 7.62x39 without the wearer getting knocked unconscious. Fights are typically unfair. The sense of accomplishment comes from using whatever you have available to defeat any adversary you face or knowing when to run. 

On 10/3/2018 at 4:23 PM, ShiroTenshi said:

Tarkov is cut out from the rest of world. There's no steady stream of supplies, no rule of law, no security. This means the economy inside the exclusion zone will be different then current real world economy. Don't think a real world pricing view is very realistic. They will have different values for things we take for granted and so on.

While i have no issues with what you say in this post, i must point out that the goal eventually is for the economy to be responsive to player actions. With the dynamic economy, prices and availability will rise and fall depending on the players, so in effect the market will regulate itself.

I personally agree with both sides to some extent. While BSG has clearly done a TON of research on not only ballstic mechanics, they have also taken the time to research the economics involved. While the supply-and-demand idea would work for a system with typical exposure to other countries' resources, remember that Tarkov is supposedly isolated from the outside world COMPLETELY. That means supply will always be low, with little to no influx, and demand will (hypothetically) grow higher and higher without end. As long as loot in the game world doesn't "run out", supply should remain fairly stable, with demand stabilizing as well while still remaining high. So, doesn't that mean that higher-quality, lower-population products should be priced far more expensively? Take the Mosin for example: yes, it's a very popular, effective, AND high-production rifle, but in Tarkov, such a weapon becomes far more desirable and most likely uncommon, thus implying a drop in supply and rise in demand. Therefore, wouldn't a steep price be both justified, realistic and balanced? 

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