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indyjons

Body Armor

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indyjons

I understand that EFT is striving for real world realism through ballistics and "human dynamics." Well if you're nerdy enough to get into physics/ballistics and body armor, then please, make yourself at home.

As a friend of mine once said, "Let us study the laws of physics and the effects on ceramics."  However he was referring to gravity and how it would effect china as we walked down the aisle stocked with plates and dishes, and not SAPI plates. Anyways, enough ranting, lets get down to business. 

 

I am sure we've all heard of body armor and are more or less familiar with the different levels (see attached photo for more details on the levels of Body Armor).

This thread is merely for the discussion of body armor and its presence in EFT.

 

Example:

Ceramic plates, steel plates, soft armor, combining both soft armor and hard plates?

Durability of different types of inserts. 

Trauma inflicted upon being hit.

The list goes on..... 

 

As an example of discussion, I understand that Level 3 plates can stop most, common rifle rounds. However, I have seen .223 XM193 penetrate level 3+ (not 4) armor out of a 20 to 22 inch barrel (traveling in excess of 3300 FPS) rifle while being fired out of an 16 or 18 inch, would defeat the round.

 

NIJ-chart.gif

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indyjons

Or to get discussion rolling...

Should there be both Steel plates, Ceramic plates, and soft armor types in EFT?

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Kovacs

All of that.

Ceramic plate are lightweight but easily breaks, meaning you have to replace it very often (basically, after each gunfight if you are hit). Steel plate are heavier (meaning you consume more stamina, run la little bit slower, make more noise, etc). but almost never brake and keep efficiency even after a penetration.

A soft armor + plate combo can help to minimise bullet fragmentation effect.

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RozAlGhul

In a survival scenario, steel plates would be my choice. Of course, this is if I don't have an FOB of some sort. Also, they have mentioned that swimming might be a thing... Ceramics don't know how to swim.

For EFT, I will be focused on a minimalist lightweight rig. Front and rear ceramic plates will probably be my go to.

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dtvh
On 1/25/2016 at 0:03 AM, Kovacs said:

All of that.

Ceramic plate are lightweight but easily breaks, meaning you have to replace it very often (basically, after each gunfight if you are hit). Steel plate are heavier (meaning you consume more stamina, run la little bit slower, make more noise, etc). but almost never brake and keep efficiency even after a penetration.

A soft armor + plate combo can help to minimise bullet fragmentation effect.

How does steel plate body armor make more noise? Explain please, it's not like you are running around with steel armor.

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Kovacs

 

1 minute ago, dtvh said:

How does steel plate body armor make more noise? Explain please, it's not like you are running around with steel armor.

The extra weight in your vest induce more inertia when you move. And more inertia means more chance to cause equipment noise.

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dtvh
Just now, Kovacs said:

 

The extra weight in your vest induce more inertia when you move. And more inertia means more chance to cause equipment noise.

It's not 100 kg you know. And it's hidden behind fabric, i agree it's more energy consuming to run around with it but that's about it. 

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Kovacs
5 minutes ago, dtvh said:

It's not 100 kg you know. And it's hidden behind fabric, i agree it's more energy consuming to run around with it but that's about it. 

I know but the extra inertia it's a thing. I can cleary notice the difference when, during an airsoft game, I run with my vest without plates and with plates (despite it's a just 1kg per plate)

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RavenSpecV

The OP's initial graphic refers to old penetration ratings for soft kevlar armor. While it's true that ceramic IS lighter than steel plate of the same dimensions, it's not by much. IIRC AR500 III+ plates weigh upwards of 20 lbs a piece. Couple that with a bag full gear and at LEAST one rifle and your getting near ruck weights, nobody moves quietly enough with that much weight to sneak right up on someone. 

And the first person to bring up Dragon Scale should be forced to run a 5k wearing the thing. It's more weight than the US forces want to deal with. Not to mention reports that it was indeed penetrated by 7.62x54R AP rounds during private testing.

My biggest gripe is that if you want to use a real deal ballistic model there is A LOT more to take into account than round composition and velocity. Angle play a very real role when dealing with plate armor, steel or ceramic. A 10 degree angle of impact compared to a round striking at 0 degrees has to penetrate a good amount more of "effective armor" to punch through. Bullets are not, strictly speaking, made to normalize the angle of impact like large caliber munitions. Jacketed rounds crush against a hard object the majority of the time, and hardened penetrating rounds are more prone to ricochet at oblique angles...

Just saying, real life ballistics is a lot more than "My gun/ammo vs your armor level".

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RavenSpecV

I retract my first sentence. I read the chart wrong.

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dtvh
14 hours ago, Kovacs said:

I know but the extra inertia it's a thing. I can cleary notice the difference when, during an airsoft game, I run with my vest without plates and with plates (despite it's a just 1kg per plate)

Why i state otherwise is be cause in army i was military police, and we did few weeks close quarter combat practice in old military complex with empty apartment buildings and it did not seem to be the issue. I have seen and used some different vests. You had lot of gear and in military they teach you to pack your gear so it wont clutter and you are quiet, no matter how heavy you are. It's a must, you can't run around like a tin man. :) You don't run anyway much at all when you clean buildings. It's very systematic in real life cause this type of combat is most dangerous. So it's hard for me to imagine that this is an issue in game.

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indyjons

I hope this "Real world ballistics" thing is going to actually work and not just be a "5.56x45[Penetrate_level_3=no] .308AP[Penetrat_level_3=yes] 

I hope that makes sense. But if it is "real world" then it would take into account angles, plate ware/fatigue and maybe fail if it gets shot multiple times in the same location. And not just be a "yes/no penetration" situation.

Example 1:

Guy at 200 yards with a CERAMIC Level 3 plate, gets shot with a single .308, round gets stopped, guy runs away relatively unscathed, maybe some trauma.

He chooses to reuse the same plate thinking, "This is all I have, might save my life again." 

Later on, he gets lit up with an AKM and has wounds to his limbs a his plate took a few hits as well, but unfortunately one happened to hit that same spot the .308 hit, and now he is "Down and Out."

Example 2:

Same initial situation, but with a STEEL level 3 plate.

Chooses to use the plate again.

But this time, he can still fight his way out of it or at least die trying. But none-the-less, he can still keep fighting. Sure another shot from a .308 will probably make it through, but he was at least able to make it out and back to base to maybe swap out his plates from his stash.

 

On 1/28/2016 at 6:21 PM, RavenSpecV said:

 AR500 III+ plates weigh upwards of 20 lbs a piece. 

Its about 20 lbs a pair, almost 10 lbs per plate.

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Sushi
On 1/30/2016 at 4:04 PM, indyjons said:

I hope this "Real world ballistics" thing is going to actually work and not just be a "5.56x45[Penetrate_level_3=no] .308AP[Penetrat_level_3=yes] 

I hope that makes sense. But if it is "real world" then it would take into account angles, plate ware/fatigue and maybe fail if it gets shot multiple times in the same location. And not just be a "yes/no penetration" situation.

Example 1:

Guy at 200 yards with a CERAMIC Level 3 plate, gets shot with a single .308, round gets stopped, guy runs away relatively unscathed, maybe some trauma.

He chooses to reuse the same plate thinking, "This is all I have, might save my life again." 

Later on, he gets lit up with an AKM and has wounds to his limbs a his plate took a few hits as well, but unfortunately one happened to hit that same spot the .308 hit, and now he is "Down and Out."

Example 2:

Same initial situation, but with a STEEL level 3 plate.

Chooses to use the plate again.

But this time, he can still fight his way out of it or at least die trying. But none-the-less, he can still keep fighting. Sure another shot from a .308 will probably make it through, but he was at least able to make it out and back to base to maybe swap out his plates from his stash.

 

Its about 20 lbs a pair, almost 10 lbs per plate.

Eyeballing plates condition is going to be interesting.

 

You think there'll be a used body armor market for rookies? xD

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Kovacs
8 hours ago, Sushi said:

You think there'll be a used body armor market for rookies? xD

+1

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indyjons
On 2/4/2016 at 5:11 PM, Sushi said:

Eyeballing plates condition is going to be interesting.

 

You think there'll be a used body armor market for rookies? xD

Or even the ability to create body armor from books, ceramic tiles, and ducktape! But you won't be able to carry much gear.

Read that from this book, you can kind of see what im talking about in far right picture.

!51uGsubsuWL._SX331_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

Edited by indyjons

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Europoor
3 minutes ago, indyjons said:

Or even the ability to create body armor from books, ceramic tiles, and ducktape! But you won't be able to carry much gear.

Read that from this book, you can kind of see what im talking about in far right picture.

!51uGsubsuWL._SX331_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

This is such a tabloid book... Not real anything.

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indyjons
On 2/5/2016 at 11:00 AM, Europoor said:

This is such a tabloid book... Not real anything.

I wish I could understand that.

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Europoor
7 hours ago, indyjons said:

I wish I could understand that.

The book which you mentioned contains a lot of unreal information.

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DreTaX14
On 2016. 01. 25. at 9:21 PM, indyjons said:

Or to get discussion rolling...

Should there be both Steel plates, Ceramic plates, and soft armor types in EFT?

Definetely. AR500 Steel plates hold up 90 green tip 5.56s. I would say making them to the game is complicated but possible.

Edited by DreTaX14

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DeltaElite121

I think it's important to really be careful on how much armor you introduce into the game, because you really get into that "WELL, THEN YOU GET DIFFERENT TYPES OF AMMO N' STUFF" .... and then we go downhill.

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RuiningMyTeams

I love the fact that armour in EFT offer's real protection, unlike most FPS actions/shooter game's, and also that its balanced very well already, in it's current alpha state. let alone what the finished articular will be like. i do feel like more armour type's  are needed in Tarkov maybe some lighter protection for your leg's.

 

But i still think grenade's should be a 1 hit kill, very much as they are right now, it takes alot of skill to kill with grenade's in EFT. if your skilled anoth to hit someone or stupid anoth to get hit, then fair play you deserve the kill/death, and the spoils or disappointment that come with either one.

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RuiningMyTeams
9 hours ago, EightGalaxies said:

Most FPS games just show armour for cosmetic regions if they aren't survival games like this. There isn't need for working armour if the game is fast paced.

 

Sorry but I do not understand what your trying to say, In my opinion this is not a fast paced game at all. It is most possibly the best tactical shooter I've ever played.

By that I'm saying you have to take your time and plan ahead to come out the other side alive. So yes armour is vital to this type of game. In my opinion OFC.

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RuiningMyTeams
On 17/03/2017 at 3:48 PM, EightGalaxies said:

I was agreeing with you. In games like Call of Duty and Battlefield your character wears armour but it doesn't protect you. In survival games like this its necessary to have working armour creating an incentive to wear it. 

totally man :P !!!

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DeltaElite121
On ‎3‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 10:48 AM, EightGalaxies said:

I was agreeing with you. In games like Call of Duty and Battlefield your character wears armour but it doesn't protect you. In survival games like this its necessary to have working armour creating an incentive to wear it. 

I still think it should be HELPFUL, but not NECESSARY. There needs to be an equalizer when implementing armor types, otherwise we run into a brick wall with balance and essentially nobody even attempts to play unless they do in fact have/wear armor. I think they've ironed it out fairly well, but I haven't had a chance to directly compare the two and see statistical value differences to really see how the numbers fall.

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sgtmoss

Somewhat off topic perhaps but do you feel the current armor balance is not good for gameplay?  Lower level, less geared players may not have a real chance of even killing someone with armor even if they have the drop on them.  Here's 3 examples that have occurred in my play.

1. On factory, with the high ground, spotted an armored enemy player walking, he was not aware of me, took 2 well aimed headshots.  He stops to look and aim at me, fired an additional number of rounds resulting in 8 total hits on a stationary target according to after raid stats.  He proceeded to shoot a single burst and kill me.

2. On factory, turned a corner to see an armored player with shotgun, fire directly into his face, resulting in blood splatter directly behind his head on a wall.  Fire another shot to the head, may or may not have hit or partial hit.  Guy falls back and meds.  Die trying to push him.

3. On factory, watching stairs in the small 2 breachable door room.  Armored player comes up the stairs,I have the drop on him, I spray him in the face with Kedr.  He manages to fire 2 rounds while dying.  We both die.

 

That's not counting all the raids where you engage someone with a shotgun or pistol from extended range where you have effectively no chance.  I understand that body armor does stop bullets, pistol and shotgun rounds specifically even more easily.  But when high level players are running around with max level armor, what are lower level people supposed to do?  I have one full set of armor while some players have literally half a dozen to lose.  I dont bother bringing any gear outside my gamma container because I know if I go heads up with any armored player I will almost certainly die even if I have guns.  This leads IMO to only fully geared max armor players and naked hatchet players.   The idea of bringing a pistol or shotgun only and leaving with gear seems more and more unlikely.  Strategy, movement, positioning, getting the drop on your enemy, being highly accurate.... these are the things I would expect to level the playing field yet it appears often they don't.

Edited by sgtmoss
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