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SwordBlock

Gear totally underpowered

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SwordBlock

I have been playing EFT for a while now, basically since the .11 patch. I have heard from people that gear kinda got a nerf before this. I think gear should get a bit of a buff.

Gear should get a buff because of the following reasons: There is a very bad risk reward ratio if you go in with the best or really good gear, people who only bring a pistol in a raid should not be able to kill a player who has the best gear (unless they find a weapon or something), having gear the way it is (too easy to lose) incentivises players to not take any good gear in raids, etc.

There is a very bad risk reward ratio if you go in a raid with the best or really good gear, because a player with a pistol can kill you easily. When I go in raids with a pistol, I mostly go in with an aps. I can easily kill geared guys with an aps, just aim a bit for the head and unload your mag and easy gear. You can also just go in with an sks with some bp ammo and one-shot basically every helmet. Why would you go in with gear if it barely protects you, makes you move slower and makes you hear less. At least pistols should not be able to penetrate level 4+ armor class, because why would I wear a helmet when I would get one shot with a pistol anyway? Some people might say that this might be unfair to newer players and stuff, but this incentivises newer players to grind and go in with gear as well. Let's be honest: at least 80% of raiders are hatchlings or pistoleers anyway, this might help to incentivise players to take gear with them on raids and it actually gives use to a 200k helmet and a 100k fort armor. Pistoleers can easily kill players with an ops-core helmet with all the attachments for example, or just unload on a kiver or lszh with a face shield.  Better and more expensive gear should actually make a difference of some kind. Why would I take 400k gear with me in a raid when a person who spends 10k can easily kill me? It is also pretty unrealistic that you can even shoot through a helmet, which was made for and used by military personnel. 

In the past people used to kill a scav get a vepr and kill players with that. There is nothing wrong with that method. It should not be impossible to kill geared players, but it should be harder. Instead of going in with just a pistol, you should take a weapon or find one, that is the least you should do to kill a geared player to be honest. 

And if you actually take an m4 or an rsass or something, then of course it should be possible to kill geared players with that, but as it is now you can kill people in the best gear in either 1 or 2 shots, that's all it takes. You can take 1 million rubles worth of gear with you just to get 1 or 2 tapped, by a naked dude who spent 20k on a gun at most. This is also a fair method to newer player because they will take gear and learn that going in naked has a huge disadvantage.

So in conclusion, I can think of lots  reasons of why to buff gear a bit. Make gear about 1,5x more powerful, make class 4 gear at least a 2 tap with guns that cost 50k roubles. And nerf pistols to not be able to shoot through class 4 armor and above at all. You can still shoot the legs or maybe the face hitbox, so it's still possible to kill geared player, but it should be just a bit harder. Because armor and helmets barely have any use at this point.

 

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Dismembered

The game is more or less engineered toward playing with squads, so if all of you get wrecked by a pistol you guys have a bigger issue. This way if you play with friends you can most likely get your gear back (most of it).  When you play solo you are definitely right the risk compared to reward is high but that also means you don't have to split any loot.:bewhink: 

The guy with the pistol is almost always going to play more wreckless so make sure you're being more methodical when sweeping rooms.

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Aintence

Gear shouldnt carry you through raids. Skill should. A lot of people love EFT for the fact that you can go in raid with 8k rouble pistol and take down someone with 500k of gear with a single shot.

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Dismembered
5 minutes ago, Aintence said:

Gear shouldnt carry you through raids. Skill should. A lot of people love EFT for the fact that you can go in raid with 8k rouble pistol and take down someone with 500k of gear with a single shot.

This. Also remember if they can do it so can you!

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headbanger203

Gear is very strong, considering most people are running around wearing Gen4's right now, the game is horrible for people who started late or haven't had the time to get to level 40 and don't have the weapons or the ammo to kill these tanks. 

If you're having trouble getting shot in the face, wear a visor or just chuck an Altyn on.

Although against people who are level 40 the game is largely who gets the first shot on who, as everyone runs the best ammo.

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SwordBlock
47 minutes ago, Aintence said:

Gear shouldnt carry you through raids. Skill should. A lot of people love EFT for the fact that you can go in raid with 8k rouble pistol and take down someone with 500k of gear with a single shot.

But that's also really unrealistic, and why would you take 500k gear then, because the gear is useless if someone can take you out in 1 shot anyway. It should at the very least be a bit more balanced. 

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SwordBlock
9 minutes ago, headbanger203 said:

Gear is very strong, considering most people are running around wearing Gen4's right now, the game is horrible for people who started late or haven't had the time to get to level 40 and don't have the weapons or the ammo to kill these tanks. 

If you're having trouble getting shot in the face, wear a visor or just chuck an Altyn on.

Although against people who are level 40 the game is largely who gets the first shot on who, as everyone runs the best ammo.

Well I think the game should be like that. Grind to get a higher level so you can take on the tanks, but what you say is not really true. You are still able should not be able to buy an 8k pistol and kill a guy with 500k and that is just really unbalanced and unrealistic in my opinion. And it's still easy to kill geared guys as a new player, have you heard about the mosin.

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headbanger203
Just now, SwordBlock said:

Well I think the game should be like that. Grind to get a higher level so you can take on the tanks, but what you say is not really true. You are still able should not be able to buy an 8k pistol and kill a guy with 500k and that is just really unbalanced and unrealistic in my opinion. And it's still easy to kill geared guys as a new player, have you heard about the mosin.

You should be able to do that, why? You shoot a guy in the face, is it gonna make a difference what armor he's wearing? Nope, he's just gonna die. So wear a visor instead of being angry that you died to a guy with a pistol, it happens so brush yourself off and gear-up and go again.

Mosin, oh dear god, it's a rifle that fires a big bullet and it's cheap because it's been produced since what? the 1930s? You also have to be good with the mosin, it's not an instant win as people are running AKs with 32 recoil that are easily able to destroy you if you cock-up your shot. Yes Mosins are pretty epic against anyone wearing level 3 armor or below as you can one shot them in the chest, although level 4 and 5 you need two shots, one to destroy the armor and the other to kill. It's a bolt action rifle and you'll get one or two chances before you get sprayed, it's very strong but very weak.

I don't run gear because I know how useless most of it is, nearly every PMC you run into is going to be able to pen your armor or helmet, so why waste the money? I've said in another topic, go to either extreme and stay away from the middle. Basically either run Gen4 and an Altyn or save your money and wear some cheaper gear but bring AP ammo and grenades, that way high tier armor isn't really a problem.

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Vitriks

As a new player I'm having trouble with killing geared players with PS rounds. I can't afford something better because I don't want to farm labs. I'm not complaining, I'm just saying that there are players who can't kill geared players even with AK-74. 

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mattix

I admit to having gear fear. I'd rather not take something cool into a raid and risk losing it. I like to do raids as cheaply as possible. I think to mitigate it, insurance needs to be reworked.

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stAKato
9 hours ago, SwordBlock said:

Well I think the game should be like that. Grind to get a higher level so you can take on the tanks, but what you say is not really true. You are still able should not be able to buy an 8k pistol and kill a guy with 500k and that is just really unbalanced and unrealistic in my opinion. And it's still easy to kill geared guys as a new player, have you heard about the mosin.

Bullets kill. Even .22LR kills. That's why law enforcement tactical and counter terrorism teams wear bulletproof faceshields and vests.

Higher gear is only here to reduce the chances a foe can take you down, not drop them to zero. The most important thing that should be modified is not the gear, but the ability for players to be super accurate in full auto, lack of movement inertia, weight carrying meta etc... Helmets and vests are almost fine now.

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axel2011

A lot of things are constantly  being balanced , such as bullet damage and penetration (e.g. the recent  7.62 buff ) , armour is also balanced patch to patch. In my opinion if a guy with a pistol has enough skill to headshot a fully geared dude , he deserves the gear he gets. 

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Plasterninja
On 2/9/2019 at 5:22 PM, SwordBlock said:

You are still able should not be able to buy an 8k pistol and kill a guy with 500k and that is just really unbalanced and unrealistic in my opinion.

unrealistic? UNREALISTIC?!?!?! Fully geared professional soldiers have been killed by Pistols, old bolt action rifles etc. in all the hotspots of the world, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria you name it... Bullets can kill, rocks can kill, hell even my farts can kill sometimes.

Armor / Gear does not mean that you can't be killed. Armor reduces the chances of you getting killed, but it doesnt mean you wont get killed by a well placed shot. Helmets are mostly to protect from blunt damage from falls, and fragments. They might take a pistol round or two but the backface deformation might kill you. Gear is just there to make your life easier by having your mags, tools, meds etc. ready to use instead of in pockets and bags.

All that doesnt mean that some guy with a pistol cant shoot your throat out, or a guy with a Mosin/Lee-Enfield cant send a shot right through you and your precious gear. So no its not unrealistic, its actually very realistic.

unbalanced? not really, its what the game is about, its unforgiving and rewards skill rather than gear. I mean this morning I did a quick customs run with a Mosin, 12 rounds of ammo and a Kirasa. Killed a couple of scavs and got me some meds, a scav vest and a scav backback. Found an AK-105 without ammo in a crate. Suddenly heard commotion at the old gas station full auto suppressed weapons. Normally I'd avoid that, but seeing as I was bored I decided to try and engage with my Mosin. I snuck up to the overpass and saw a fully geared guy run around with his flashlight on, I aimed in and headshot him through his L3 helmet. Seeing his Attack 2 backback and fort armor I against my will decided to loot rather than secure. I managed to get his backpack, armor, weapons west etc... When I got up his mate started shooting me, took out both of my legs but he lost sight of me when I went prone, he tried to spray and pray but gave away his position so a full auto burst from the newly acquired AK-105 took his head off and I was on my merry way.

Was it the unbalanced fact that I headshotted someone with a rifle caliber that won me the engagement? Was it luck? Or was it the fact that these two guys, put TOO much faith in their gear and got outplayed by a better player that knew the stakes and what to shoot?

TLDR:

Use your gear, but don't put too much faith in it. Use your noggin instead.

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deathopz

I feel if you stop worrying about value of the items you take in the raid the more confident in your playing ability will be. I have honestly not seen the need to wear armor as it slows me down, maybe on occasion I will take a armor in I find on past raids I try not to buy armor. However if i go with friends that are armored up I will atleast try to be similar in armor.

Edited by deathopz

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CStarker

You need to do some serious research, bud. Your assumptions about modern body armor are way off.

The penetration chances are based off of real world stastics and are accurate. There is no helmet that exists today that will keep you conscious if anything larger than a .22.hits you. The primary purpose of military helmets is to prevent trauma from falling and shrapnel. The technology just isn't there yet. 

You should not be surprised that sucessive hits from a bullet that shouldn't penetrate still kills. The ratings for body armor only apply to the first shot on undamaged armor. Nobody who designs armor expects you to be hit multiple times in the same spot. If you are, it's not your gear's fault that you are dying.

In addition, the ratings tell you what the armor will stop regardless of the state of the armor afterwards. It may stop the bullet, but the blunt force could still pulverize the underlying tissues, incapacitating you.

Edited by CStarker

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sYs

You sit in a tank and got hit with armor piercing rpg that just melts your armor

Tanks are underpowered.. :D

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roland_ita

it is not a matter of balanced or not, but about being realistic. if i go with a 8k rubles handgun and shoot a full gear guy in that spot will i kill him or not like in real life? that's the question

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-StealthWalker-

from reading all this forum i think that they should implement some form of balance system that keeps players that run fully geared to be placed on a  server with other fully geared players like a inventory cost system to determine the server to be placed in of course this would also lead to longer queuing times.  I see it all the time where a player runs with just an axe and offs a player and loots their stuff with no risk to themselves.  personally i play very defensive when im out with gear i want to keep so i rarely leave for looting.  This content form of looting hinders games like this.  Where a player who has worked hard to get good gear can be killed by a player who just run and guns everything.  with no risk of loss to the no gear player.  so as i stated earlier if a balance system was in place to determine the cash value of gear being taken out and then placed in a a server where the other players cash value gear is in that ranking it would be more practical to see players running gear then just running scavs.  adding to this you could also make it so that in order to get the scav bosses you would need to be running a certain amount of cash value gear to be placed in a server that would allow them to spawn in.  With scav runs it should also check to see the cash value of the scav you are randomly give to determine the server you would be placed in.

Edited by -StealthWalker-

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Chouette

@-StealthWalker- You will lose your gear. Not gonna keep it whatever you do.

No "safe space" for rich guys plz. If they're afraid to lose their toys to the tramps then they should just leave them in the attic.

p.s. Why how you got killed and by how much gear value should matter at all? If you're dead, you're dead. Outplayed or unlucky, doesn't matter. All these gearscore requests only because some people believe that the poor guys should not be able to steal their stuff unless they're as rich as them...

 

 

Edited by Chouette

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Spectator6
On 2/13/2019 at 3:28 PM, CStarker said:

You need to do some serious research, bud. Your assumptions about modern body armor are way off.

The penetration chances are based off of real world stastics and are accurate. There is no helmet that exists today that will keep you conscious if anything larger than a .22.hits you. The primary purpose of military helmets is to prevent trauma from falling and shrapnel. The technology just isn't there yet. 

You should not be surprised that sucessive hits from a bullet that shouldn't penetrate still kills. The ratings for body armor only apply to the first shot on undamaged armor. Nobody who designs armor expects you to be hit multiple times in the same spot. If you are, it's not your gear's fault that you are dying.

In addition, the ratings tell you what the armor will stop regardless of the state of the armor afterwards. It may stop the bullet, but the blunt force could still pulverize the underlying tissues, incapacitating you.

Well said!

To your wider point, even Nikita acknowledges the game is in a weird spot when it comes to certain elements of armor. In the most recent TarkovTV dev blog, when talking about some new helmet they were adding to the game, Nik even said something to the effect of, "This helmet is amazing. It will stop a round up to <some large calibre, I forget which>. It will stop it, yes. But, but! Your brain will be like a can of tushonka!"

His point being that in real life, surviving is much more nuanced. Will you survive? Maybe so. But you'll be totally incapacitated and require immediate emergency medical attention.

So do the devs know this? Yes, of course. Take even a casual look at some of the subject matter R&D that has gone into (and continues to go into!) this game and that fact is abundantly clear. The issue is, what do we do with it in the gamespace?

I know for me, my number one reaction for blunt trauma is usually something along the lines of, "Aww, come on! I drilled that guy 5 times in the back with a rifle round, and he just spins around and continues to fight seemingly unimpaired? Come on..."

For this reason, this is why I feel like a stronger aim punch may be one of the best ways to approach it. Is it realistic in the sense that in real life, people are jostled around like pin ball machines when taking medium calibre rounds while wearing plate armor? Probably not. But he likely wouldn't be Mr Unfazed-Sally-Sunshine either. So it does accomplish at least one thing well, and that is to put the receiver at some modicum of disadvantage.

Because let's face it, given the confines of a first person shooter, there are only so many "levers" BSG is able to pull here. So yes, I think that requires some form of suspension-of-belief on our part in how they bring the game's mechanics to bear.

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Plasterninja
12 hours ago, Spectator6 said:

For this reason, this is why I feel like a stronger aim punch may be one of the best ways to approach it. Is it realistic in the sense that in real life, people are jostled around like pin ball machines when taking medium calibre rounds while wearing plate armor? Probably not. But he likely wouldn't be Mr Unfazed-Sally-Sunshine either. So it does accomplish at least one thing well, and that is to put the receiver at some modicum of disadvantage.

From my experience as a soldier, people don't realise they've been hit till after awhile, their first reaction to being shot is actually the reaction of being fired upon, so they go prone. But seeing as this is a game, there's no way of forcing people to take cover when taking fire. I've seen untrained 10 Dollar talibans that takes 5.56 rounds to the chest do the "Mr. Unfazed-Sally-Sunshine" because they simply haven't realised they've been hit, so they take 5-10 shots more before they hit the ground and the body catches up to the fact that they've been hit.

I think the problem here is not so much that getting hit is unrealistic in the game, because we simply cannot simulate being hit, but the fact that pro FPS gamers has very little incentive to try and "survive" rather than fight, simply because death really doesn't mean anything in this game (yet).

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Spectator6
5 hours ago, Plasterninja said:

From my experience as a soldier, people don't realise they've been hit till after awhile, their first reaction to being shot is actually the reaction of being fired upon, so they go prone. But seeing as this is a game, there's no way of forcing people to take cover when taking fire. I've seen untrained 10 Dollar talibans that takes 5.56 rounds to the chest do the "Mr. Unfazed-Sally-Sunshine" because they simply haven't realised they've been hit, so they take 5-10 shots more before they hit the ground and the body catches up to the fact that they've been hit.

I think the problem here is not so much that getting hit is unrealistic in the game, because we simply cannot simulate being hit, but the fact that pro FPS gamers has very little incentive to try and "survive" rather than fight, simply because death really doesn't mean anything in this game (yet).

Sure, you're absolutely right, it can definitely play out that way too! 

Does that mean the game should have a die-roll for whether or not a player "shrugs off" rounds during an engagement? Ehhh, probably not...

Because like you said, this is a game and whether we like it not, expectations do come into play. Do we really want EFT's equivalent of a 10 Dollar Taliban to regularly eat multiple rifle rounds to his chest, unprotected, and come out on top in the firefight? Probably not...

By that same token, should the same 10 Dollar Taliban, if he should survive the initial contact, be able to hide in a corner and bring himself up to perfect 100% health by spamming meds? In my opinion no. A guy with three rounds in his chest should no longer be on equal footing health-wise with a "fresh/untouched" player, I don't care what meds he found or was carrying.

So with this in mind, perhaps injured players should not be able to fully heal their wounds while in the field? Maybe all wounds could continue to bleed out, even at a small rate? Maybe they require more bandages to be applied every x minutes?

Mechanics like may help the game "feel" like it better aligns with our expectations, etc.

Thoughts? Improvements?

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Dusty747

I go into raids loaded to the teeth every time, fort or killa vest with plate vests, top shelf helmets and face armors, I run 2 primary rifles, usually mp7 or val with a big hitter like SA58 or m14. for the millions in gear and ammo I go in with it literally buys me a chance to survive 3 or 4 shots from decent ammo, good players or squads can make a good play and get the right drop on me and drop me easy.

bad players on the other hand think that they are going to play shot for shot with me in the open, sorry but your going to black out my limbs and crush my expensive gear, but I will spin around and if your giving me something to shoot at, I will fill you up with bullets faster than you can shoot me

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Plasterninja
1 hour ago, Spectator6 said:

Sure, you're absolutely right, it can definitely play out that way too! 

Does that mean the game should have a die-roll for whether or not a player "shrugs off" rounds during an engagement? Ehhh, probably not...

Because like you said, this is a game and whether we like it not, expectations do come into play. Do we really want EFT's equivalent of a 10 Dollar Taliban to regularly eat multiple rifle rounds to his chest, unprotected, and come out on top in the firefight? Probably not...

By that same token, should the same 10 Dollar Taliban, if he should survive the initial contact, be able to hide in a corner and bring himself up to perfect 100% health by spamming meds? In my opinion no. A guy with three rounds in his chest should no longer be on equal footing health-wise with a "fresh/untouched" player, I don't care what meds he found or was carrying.

So with this in mind, perhaps injured players should not be able to fully heal their wounds while in the field? Maybe all wounds could continue to bleed out, even at a small rate? Maybe they require more bandages to be applied every x minutes?

Mechanics like may help the game "feel" like it better aligns with our expectations, etc.

Thoughts? Improvements?

A couple of years ago I came up with a new health and Med system, I can try and see if I can dig up the topic because I agree that the current system is too forgiving.

edit: I can see that we actually had this debate back then lol here’s the thread.

 

Edited by Plasterninja
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Spectator6
21 minutes ago, Plasterninja said:

A couple of years ago I came up with a new health and Med system, I can try and see if I can dig up the topic because I agree that the current system is too forgiving.

edit: I can see that we actually had this debate back then lol here’s the thread.

 

Ha! Awesome find @Plasterninja! Lotta greats in that thread, including the incomparable @SirGaara, who is a tiger downrange but a teddybear at heart :p 

Crazy to think that was already a year ago...

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