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Streets of Tarkov and Labs, Ideas for Raid within a Raid


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Spectator6

This is a suggestion I made elsewhere, thought I'd repost it here as well so others in the community can provide feedback and ideas too.

For those may not have heard, the Labs map will eventually be accessible only from within the Streets of Tarkov map. This means players will need to make a “two part” raid. 
This raid within a raid idea, got me thinking:

How could EFT set up a situation where a team of players would want one or two teammates to stay in the Streets of Tarkov map and provide cover to a Labs entrance/exit, while another set of teammates goes into Labs? 

One of those situations where the teammates, before loading into Labs, tells the others, “Okay, we’re going in. We’ll try to exit from one of the elevators. We’ll radio when we approach for extract. If you don’t hear from us in 35 minutes, that means we’ve been killed.”
At this point, the “stay behind” team would position themselves on Streets of Tarkov to overwatch near the locations where the elevator extractions feed into. 
How might this be accomplished? Here are some thoughts…

NOTE: I talk about the use of ingame VOIP and radios throughout (both planned), but most of the ideas will work even if you choose to use a third-party program like Discord.

1. Link the server instances together

When a player exits Streets of Tarkov and enters into Labs, this new server instance for Labs will then become shared by every other player who is joining from the previous Streets of Tarkov server instance. So let’s say there are 12 PMC’s playing on Streets of Tarkov. Two players make it to a Labs entrance, and enter into Labs. Ten minutes later, another squad of two players that was on the same Streets of Tarkov instance, also makes it to a Labs entrance. Whenever that squad enters into Labs, they will enter onto the same Labs instance that the previous two players entered into. This will create a sort of staggered spawn situation where another PMC team could already be moving through Labs. 
Perhaps each squads gets its own ~40 minute timer upon entering Labs? For those squadmates who stayed behind in Streets of Tarkov, perhaps they too get an additional 50 minutes added to their timer?

2. Labs entrance locations on Streets of Tarkov correspond to spawn points within Labs

Similar to how players could previously choose their spawn points using Maps, what if a team could choose to enter into Labs from the sewer by entering at a specific location on Streets of Tarkov? This could provide further incentive to have a “stay behind” team on Streets of Tarkov to scout out the different entrance locations and let the Labs team know what’s going on through radios (once they get added). 
“Labs crew, be advised, we see two PMC’s approaching the stairwell. You might have company coming from that direction, over” \*cshh\*

3a. Teammates in Labs can provide situation reports

Picture this scenario… 

The first Labs strike team enters through the sewers, the fallback team starts moving through Streets of Tarkov to provide overwatch. 

Not too long after the first team entered, they hear on their radios, “Guys, I had to back out, it was too hot in there! We lost Rob and Herbert…”

Stayback team: “Okay, hang tight. We’ll come back to you, we’ve got meds. Once we get you stabilized, we’ll set you up in a window to provide cover and we’ll try to go into Labs to recover their gear. We’ll try to make it quick.”

Same as before, once the “new” team enters into Labs, they’ll get a fresh 40 min timer on the same Labs instance while the one guy that stayed back in Streets of Tarkov gets another ~50 minutes tacked on to his raid instance.
This same type of information sharing could be used in other ways too. 

Labs team: “We’re taking heavy fire from the NW, could you guys come in near that entrance?”

Streets of Tarkov Team: “Roger that, heading that way… [several minutes later] Okay we’re in position, coming into Labs now…”

From there, they coordinate their attacks in Labs from different angles.

3b. Radio signals between Streets of Tarkov and Labs are “lost” within certain areas of the Labs map

What if certain high value areas on Labs distorts or loses radio communication to the Streets of Tarkov team? 

Streets of Tarkov team: “Labs crew, you’re breaking up, repeat last…” 

Labs team: \*static\* with bits of words coming through

Streets of Tarkov team: “Hmm… They must be near the dome area right now…”

The same situation can work in reverse too. If the Streets cover team radios in to let the Labs team know they're being overrun, to NOT come out of a certain Labs exit point... The Labs team is left wondering, "Uh oh, that didn't sound good. I think I heard him say tunnel. Does that mean we should extract from tunnel or were they trying to warn us that another squad is entering in through tunnel?"

4. Extract from Labs, also need to extract from Streets of Tarkov

This may already be implied by what Nikita was saying, but if not, this could really bring the whole dynamic together. If you go into Labs as a full five man, what’s the best way to get out? Should you all risk using the same extraction point, leading to the same place on Streets of Tarkov? Or do you split up? Also, if you did *NOT* choose to have someone stay back to cover your exit, how do you know it’s clear? What if an enemy squad on Streets of Tarkov is watching that Labs exit route? If you split up your escapes, maybe at least one of your groups will make it out successfully?

5. Radios can be stolen from downed players

Say you're the Labs team that just extracted and you're trying to radio your cover team that stayed behind on Streets of Tarkov. 

Labs team: "Okay, we're out! We're approaching the street corner. Is it clear?"

Streets of Tarkov team: <silence>

Labs team: "Guys, are you there? Do you copy?"

At this point the labs team is worried that either the stay behind team got overrun and/or another team is currently listening in to their radio traffic and now knows where they are.

Or another situation, though it likely won't play out very well since people can "cheat" with other voice comm software like Discord... Let's say another squad has "captured" the Labs team and is leading them to an exit by gunpoint. Once they surface, they "force" the Labs team to tell them where the stayback team is overwatching from and has them radio the all clear to their teammates. Same could take place from the other side with the stayback team as hostage.

-------------------------------------------------------

There are probably many more dynamics something like could introduce. Expanding this "raid within a raid" idea further may introduce some really neat and interesting gameplay situations within EFT. 

Thoughts? Improvements?

Edited by Spectator6
correct formatting
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Spectator6

There was some discussion concerning radios on the subreddit topic. Thought I'd share some if it here for the sake of discussion.

There are probably much better links to demonstrate the power of proximity chat and radios, but here's one that came up with a quick Youtube search (timestamped at 8:38):

Notice how it starts out with proximity chat, then when he gets out of earshot, it goes to shortrange radio. Notice too how when he finally gets to shore and tries to get in touch with his teammates, the radio silence makes him feel uneasy and unsure of what may have happened on their end while they were separated.

This added sense of uncertainty is AMAZING!

We take for granted just how prevalent it is to hear a barrage of gunfire and have our teammate say over Discord, "Aww crap, I'm down, they got me. They were over by the cash registers. There may be more than one..."

Imagine that same situation except *NOT* hearing any further comms from your downed teammate. You hear a ton of direct gunfire, close to your squad's position. "Hey Rob, you okay? ... Rob? ... ROB!? Are you alive or what, talk to us man!"

The kicker being that this whole time your voice would be heard by nearby enemies through proximity chat. So the more you panic and yell, the more you're at risk for giving away your position too.

The amount of depth and immersion this adds to the experience simply cannot be stressed enough :)

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mattywatty2012

You are largely overestimating what games and servers can do at this time not only in Tarkov, but also gaming in general.

What you are proposing with the instance within an instance scenario is impossible.

I dare say that labs will only be able to work one way; three different map instances with one "life". You'll load into streets of tarkov, progress to a different instance for labs, extract from labs and be in a fresh instance of streets of tarkov. This is the most likely from an ease of implementation and practicality standpoint.

This does however have its own set of problems namely no other players (or greatly reduced amount) in the labs run. However; having to survive three raids without dying to extract with that loot is incredibly challenging.

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Spectator6

Hello @mattywatty2012 good to have you join the discussion!

  • You are largely overestimating what games and servers can do at this time not only in Tarkov, but also gaming in general.

You may be right which is why it's good to have your knowledgeable input.

You'll have to pardon my ignorance here, but we can already spawn into active raids as scavs, can we not? What would make this any different from having players spawn into an active instance of Labs?

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mattywatty2012

Think of it like this; You cant have a server within a server.

You cant spawn into a round of streets, get to a point in the raid, spawn into a fresh raid of labs, get to a point and end up back in the original instance of streets.

Its incredibly complicated and completely different to scav raids. Its easy to spawn into a raid already running, look at late spawns as well as scav raids. But to have two separate games running and to switch while the servers are live between the two would be, to put it lightly, difficult.

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Spectator6
  • Its easy to spawn into a raid already running...

 Right @mattywatty2012, so how is this any different?

  • There is server running Streets, players joining and playing works the same as it does now. 
  • There is a server running a Labs instance, players can join if they reach particular extraction point/s on Streets.
  • Other players who likewise reach particular extraction points can join mid-raid into that same Labs server
  • The Streets server is kept alive until all players within it and the Labs instance are either dead or their timers expire.
  • Players  who are able to extract from Labs rejoin  the still active Streets server as late-spawns.

How is this not possible? It seems to me it's using the same systems we're currently using right now, is it not?

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mattywatty2012

There is a difference to what you're suggesting and what would need to be implemented before it works.

The servers at the moment aren't the best, lets all face facts. Servers with what you think needs to be implemented would be a dumpster fire of epic proportions. I'd suggest you read up a bit on coding, pathing and the way games are created (not trying to be rude) because there is a massive disconnect with what you think is possible for the game. (Though this seems to happen to a lot of people and not just in regards to tarkov, games aren't magic and are limited by the platforms and servers of our time).

Eventually it might happen, but it wont be in Tarkov and not by these devs.

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Spectator6
10 hours ago, mattywatty2012 said:

There is a difference to what you're suggesting and what would need to be implemented before it works.

Rather than simply tell me to "go learn", can you elaborate a bit more on what you see the main issues being?

  • Is the issue making sure the Streets server players can reliably join the same Labs server together?
  • Is it making sure the Labs players can reliably re-join the Streets server?

To a simpleton like myself, the matter of connecting/disconnecting to servers is something players have been doing in online games for decades. But clearly, I may have grossly overlooked something here...

10 hours ago, mattywatty2012 said:

Eventually it might happen, but it wont be in Tarkov and not by these devs.

Come now, I don't see how that attitude helps anything! Given your extensive knowledge on this topic, why not help point BSG in the right direction? Why not give them a heads-up as to what roadblocks they might encounter? Isn't that more productive than simply writing off the BSG devs as being incapable of handling something like this?

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Spectator6
11 hours ago, GhostSpartan117 said:

Cool ideas, dunno about the practicality though. I do like where your going with this though!

Hello @GhostSpartan117! Anything in particular stand out to you that you like? Anything more you'd like to add?

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If we forget the "cheating" part of using a third-party software like Discord or/and the incredibly hard (or impossible) implementation of your proposal due to server and technical limitations, such features offered would be a huge step towards deep role-playing and carefully planned strategies, and trust me I would sincerely love to see that more present in Tarkov.

Edited by Pezzo1
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Spectator6

Hello @Pezzo1! Thanks for sharing your input!

5 hours ago, Pezzo1 said:

If we forget the "cheating" part of using a third-party software like Discord or/and the incredibly hard (or impossible) implementation of your proposal due to server and technical limitations...

Let's look at'em one by one...

  1. We know that players can already spawn into a Raid as a PMC, get killed, immediately use their Scav, and -- simply by luck -- spawn into the same raid they were just in as a PMC. I've Svav'd in, found my own dead body, and recovered by own dogtag before. So that in and out and back in stuff is already possible. All this would do is make it "intentional", ie EFT would purposefully choose a specific server instance rather than hop back into the normal matchmaking process.
  2. And with spawn locations, in earlier versions of EFT, players could more or less choose their spawn points prior to joining the Raid. So we know that functionality is there too. So if a player exits Streets of Tarkov by way of a certain Labs entrance, that could count as the player "choosing" a particular spawn point on the Labs map. So we know this is possible too.
  3. And when players extract from Labs, they would be re-joining the prior Streets server mid-raid, which seems very similar to a Scav choosing to spawn in during a raid, just with the added twist that it would target a specific server instance, same as described in no 1 above. And also just as before, the place they choose to extract from in Labs could correspond to "choosing" a certain spawn location on Streets. 

So again, not to beat a dead horse here, but it does seem that much of what's needed to bring this together has already been implemented into EFT in some way, shape, or form. The pieces just need to be looked at in a slightly different light.

As far as server stability goes, if ten players were matchmake'd into the same Streets of Tarkov server initially, there's a good chance that server is a "nice fit" for all of the players. That is, after all, why EFT chose to group them together to begin with. So if the server was a good fit for everyone at the beginning, why wouldn't it still be a good fit if, say 5 of those players choose to push into Labs, and then later try to rejoin that same Streets server that's still has a raid in progress?

5 hours ago, Pezzo1 said:

...such features offered would be a huge step towards deep role-playing and carefully planned strategies, and trust me I would sincerely love to see that more present in Tarkov.

Wouldn't it though!? That type of planning and execution would add so much to EFT's already rich and deep gameplay.

Thanks again for joining the discussion!

Edited by Spectator6
typo
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@Xarc smart/experienced players will set a password to confirm identity without visual. Even so this would be a super interesting feature, even if the enemy doesn't respond, can be hearing. Yes there are multiple languages without undersand, but think.. most of the players using that feature will be unknown mates random grouping, as when you join with randoms at the lobby. People who play together, unfortunately in this case, will use third party software like discord, etc. So people using radios, will be talking mostly in the most universal languages. 

Even so, I would like to see this, I would make a sacrifice and use only ingame comms for the inmersion.. i love to do that in games, specially in Tarkov. hope other ppl think this way too...

And for the topic, I wish all of this happen. Really hope to be technically possible. All the described situations would be amazing in Tarkov. Hope the devs can take note of this and study the situation to see if it's possible if is not planned.

NIkita voice: "It's planned" xD

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GhostSpartan117
On 3/29/2019 at 9:20 AM, Spectator6 said:

Hello @GhostSpartan117! Anything in particular stand out to you that you like? Anything more you'd like to add?

First off I like the idea with the radios in 3b and such but in reality most people will just end up using discord so I'm not sure that's really going to be something that happens often if at all. Another thing that other people have already said is that technically it would be challenging. I think they would 100% have to instance each zone off to another server, having 3 different raids running on one server is just not gonna be possible with all the AI and players. Other than that I think its a pretty cool idea and I would love to see more raids similar to Labs but with more of a challenge to entry like having to complete a task line every week to get the keycard to go in, or having to kill multiple scav bosses to prove your worth or something like that. Then you would still have to travel through multiple raids to get to the one you have the keycard for. As it is right now any skilled squad would be doing at least one labs run every day or two and while I think that's perfectly fine there should be a more challenging lab-type instance for squads to work towards entering every week.

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Counteractive

There would need to be significant optimization done to the game. Right now it takes me 5-10 minutes to load into labs as it is with a decent rig. To load the streets of tarkov (which I presume is going to be a much larger map by itself) along with the data from labs might cause the load times to be longer than the actual raid. Then comes the second part, what is going to be done about raiders? Raiders in labs are a significant threat and a considerably large number spawn. How are we supposed to survive PvPvE to get to the labs entrance, then PvPvE our way through labs, then PvPvE our way to extraction? Maybe large groups might have a couple members survive but solo players won't stand a snowballs chance in hell.

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Spectator6

Hello @Counteractive! Thanks for your input!

41 minutes ago, Counteractive said:

To load the streets of tarkov (which I presume is going to be a much larger map by itself) along with the data from labs might cause the load times to be longer than the actual raid. 

I must have not chosen my words carefully enough on this point, I honestly don't know why this is causing so much confusion. Let me give it another shot :)

  • A player connects to a Streets of Tarkov server and loads the one map's info, same as it is now.  
  • If the player is the first to leave the Streets of Tarkov server by reaching an extraction that serves as an entrance into Labs, the player will completely disconnect from the Streets server, and then proceed to connect to a player-empty Labs server and load that one map's info.
  • If another player who was part of the same Streets of Tarkov raid also extracts from Streets and enter into Labs, he will go through the same process as the first player, except rather than join the normal matchmaking process, he will join the same Labs server the first player joined. In this way, it will act very similar to a "mid-raid" spawn.
  • Players that then proceed to extract from Labs will not join the normal matchmaking process, but instead connect to the same Streets server they initially connected to. Again, this will act very similar to a "mid-raid" spawn.

The goal here is to have the players in the initial Streets of Tarkov map act as a single "group" for the purposes of moving into Labs and, if successful, back into Streets. In this way, a player will not be forced to survive three "fresh" raids, each with their own matchmaking queue of X number of players, but go up against the same ~10-15 players they initially joined Streets with.

59 minutes ago, Counteractive said:

Then comes the second part, what is going to be done about raiders? Raiders in labs are a significant threat and a considerably large number spawn. How are we supposed to survive PvPvE to get to the labs entrance, then PvPvE our way through labs, then PvPvE our way to extraction? Maybe large groups might have a couple members survive but solo players won't stand a snowballs chance in hell.

Yep, it would definitely prove difficult! Maybe that difficulty is what might make the high-tier loot of Labs worth it? Are there any gadgets or tools-o-the-trade EFT could add that might help make it more doable for a solo player? Maybe a solo player's best mode of attack would be to avoid Labs altogether and simply try to kite Labs players when they come back into Streets with their juicy loot?

And, I should point out, that in the final version of the game, it's very likely that Streets will be the "last" map location the player will move through before he officially "escapes from Tarkov". So what we're looking at here is a seasoned and veteran player, not some noob who just happened to find himself in a tough situation. I imagine that, in order to get that far, he would likely have had some help along the way, no?

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