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Spectator6

A deep dive into recoil mechanics

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Spectator6
Posted (edited)

My goal here is to discuss, "What if the tried and true two-part manner of representing recoil is actually wrong, and has spoiled us after all this time? What if the efforts EFT is making in regard to recoil are actually more appropriate, but that after all this years of playing FPS's we're just simply not used to it?" 

Interested in looking into this further? Then come on in, let's get to it!

-----

Traditionally, FPS's have relied upon two mechanics to represent aiming and recoil.

The first we'll look at, is what I'm going to call the "bloom" or "dispersion" area. This can be visualized as a shape that widens and contracts over time, representing where the player's bullet might land for any given shot. Each "click" of the mouse generally widens the shape (or, for automatics, the longer the mouse is held down). This "bloom rate" is balanced against the shape's rate of contraction. The more the user waits between each click of his mouse, the more time to circle has to "shrink back down" to it's initial size. The balancing act that goes on here can be imagined as a sort of "user input race". How quickly the shape vs how quickly it returns to normal can help give the "feeling" of more or less recoil control.

g3762-1.thumb.png.bb72e3a40e6e319ac60893a18240a0f0.png

Notice too how, in the illustrations above, playing with different "shapes" can help give the sense that weapons may buck or kick in different directions, with different patterns, or signatures.

The second mechanic often used is what I'll refer to as cursor displacement. This is the game moving the player's mouse position. This effect is also used primarily as a means to simulate the weapon violently "jerking" upward after breaking the shot. Games move the player's mouse upward and possibly slightly to one side or another and then, either leave the mouse at this new position or add a slight "drift" back downward to represent a sort of "cushion" effect. In each of these cases, though, it is important to note that the cursor position is directly influenced. Here's an illustration:

g5613.thumb.png.7a895d9eb0963b618bcfffcd96428c98.png

Combining these two mechanics together, then, results in something similar to this:

g5787.thumb.png.864357cd6c058ae95b0e0c5d210f98f0.png

Note how the cursor's position is moved away from its original location and that the weapon's intended point of impact tracks the cursor position throughout.

Now, Escape From Tarkov caught on to something very interesting here. And that is, the role of the user's cursor position. In traditional FPS games, the user's cursor position is used as a point of feedback as to where the weapon is currently pointed (as we discussed above). But is this the only way of interpreting it? 

What if we take a step back and instead view the cursor as representing the player's point of aim and allow the weapon to act independently? Something wholly different begins to emerge! 

For example, in real life, if I draw down on a target with my pistol, every time I break a shot, I'm trying to hit the same area. But, due to a multitude of factors we'll simply refer to here as "recoil", whether or not I'm able to accurately place those rounds on target is a different matter. Generally, the faster I shoot, the closer I start to approach the boundary of my capabilities. Shoot too quickly, and the gun will simply start to "get ahead of me", so to speak. As I get better at shooting, this threshold can be pushed further and further, allowing me to retain control at various rates of fire.

It's important to distinguish here that during rapid fire, my intended target does not jerk ever-upward. The firearm is what is moving, not my "focus" or intent. In the same way, EFT seems to interpret the user's cursor position to represent where the user wants his avatar to aim, not necessarily where the weapon's muzzle is currently pointing. Just as in my real life example above, the player's character is always TRYING to hit a certain target, and the weapon then, kind of takes on a life of its own. 

To accomplish this, EFT introduces a third element of recoil control that I'll refer to here as the "weapon aim point". Now, we have three dynamics in play, rather than the usual two: 1) Bloom 2) Cursor position 3) Weapon aim point. 

How might that look? 

text6886.thumb.png.506c5634223cb874c4ca7a87cc43e316.png

Note how the user's cursor position remains stable, and how the bloom spreads in relation to the weapon's aim point, which itself moves off target, then resetles close to the user's cursor position.

In this way, EFT's recoil "patterns" (for lack of a better word) are more akin to a spray of water from a wale's blow hole. The water shoots up, spreads out, then falls back downward. The "patterns" are not static and inline with the cursor, but "float" relative the weapon's dynamic point of aim.

image6942.thumb.png.f950e00e241302b68d3b5824749eaf64.png

In my opinion, this is brilliant and is a much more nuanced and accurate way to represent what goes on and what it feels like to shoot an automatic weapon. This leaves the developers a wider range of ways to represent both how different weapons feel and to also the different levels of skill in managing recoil. 

A tighter bloom shape may represent the user controlling the weapon better (think of trying to stabilize a rattling jackhammer). How far the weapon aim point shifts away from the user's cursor position may relate to how stable the shooter's platform is in relation to the weapon's kick. The rate at which the weapon's aim point returns to the user's cursor position is also important here. 

For example, a common complaint of EFT's current implementation is that semi auto fire is discouraged. One way BSG might approach this is to return the cursor position on a nonlinear scale that coincides with the weapon's automatic rate of fire.

Break one shot, WHAM the muzzle jerks offline then begins to resettle. The start of the weapon's muzzle coming back down could be quite fast, but then it could taper off and slow down as it nears the cursor's position. This way, if a shooter rips of two single shots in rapid succession, unless he "times it" to his skill level, each successive jerk offline of the muzzle will only further add to the distance between the weapon's aim point and his intended target. Just as in real life.

The main point here being that, perhaps a weapon should respond more or less consistently to the rate of fire, not necessarily to the fire mode. This way, if a weapon fires at 900 rpm, and the avatar's skill level is currently near, say 750-800 rpm, he should be able to single fire at 700 rpm and OVERALL be more accurate than full auto.
 
I say "OVERALL" because again, just as he will quickly "get used to" a stream of fully automatic fire, he will also quickly "get used to" a stream of rapid semi automatic fire. The main differences being perhaps the magnitude and rate of muzzle aim change, as well as the size of the "bloom" shapes.

Thoughts? Improvements? Thanks for reading, interested in hearing your feedback!

-----

Post-script: In real life, if I'm taking multiple shots in rapid succession, I don't necessarily "fully re-aim" before each and every shot. There's no time for that. Instead, I trust in my training and focus on firing "within my cadence". The moment the front sight seems to be drifting back on target, BOOM, I take another shot, trusting that the literal act of breaking an intentional shot will "do the rest" and bring it on target. Once these underlying mechanics are mastered, I explore instinctive shooting at close to the same rate of fire, but that's a wholly separate topic.

Case and point: Watch a shooter take multiple shots at a moving target in real life that's outside of, say, 30 meters. Very rarely will his shot times even come CLOSE to what we're used to see in a first person shooter. It's not BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM!! It's BLAM *slight pause* BLAM *slight pause* BLAM! This is what I mean when I say we've possibly been "spoiled" over all these years by having accurate fire be overly controlled by nothing more than a few small mouse movements. In real life, it's much more difficult to place accurate shots. And in this way, I feel EFT is on the right path (again, not yet fully arrived, but in my book, definitely getting there).

Edited by Spectator6
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RACWAR
Posted (edited)

I think some of the guns in EFT can be shot way too fast and accurate for what they are, namely the .308 semi-auto rifles. One way to get around this is the introduction of a forced reduced cyclic rate, but this will greatly sacrifice controllability and responsiveness of the guns, which is a bad thing. The same thing goes for pistols, they can be shot way too quick and accurately, although pistols is a different thing, because, while pistols IRL are pretty difficult to reliably aim and shoot, much more than rifles - if this would be adapted to the game, then pistols would become very unviable.

0.11.7 will now bring quite a bit more recoil to the game, and it will be interesting to see how that will work out, I'm definitely hoping that the game will get away from full-auto meta and focus more on precise and slow shooting, rather than run-and-gun COD/CS.

One thing that I think though is that, maybe they shouldn't necessarily increase the challenge of shooting by changing the recoil of the guns, but rather change the way you aim the guns. For example:

  • Adding free aim to EFT such as Red Orchestra has it. But not everyone likes that.
  • Or generally adding more sway and instability to all sights and optics. Maybe turn to the current amount of sway that occurs when you ADS and are out of stamina - into the default sway.
Edited by RAC-W

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Spectator6
47 minutes ago, RAC-W said:

I think some of the guns in EFT can be shot way too fast and accurate for what they are, namely the .308 semi-auto rifles. One way to get around this is the introduction of a forced reduced cyclic rate, but this will greatly sacrifice controllability and responsiveness of the guns, which is a bad thing. The same thing goes for pistols, they can be shot way too quick and accurately, although pistols is a different thing, because, while pistols IRL are pretty difficult to reliably aim and shoot, much more than rifles - if this would be adapted to the game, then pistols would become very unviable.

0.11.7 will now bring quite a bit more recoil to the game, and it will be interesting to see how that will work out, I'm definitely hoping that the game will get away from full-auto meta and focus more on precise and slow shooting, rather than run-and-gun COD/CS.

One thing that I think though is that, maybe they shouldn't necessarily increase the challenge of shooting by changing the recoil of the guns, but rather change the way you aim the guns. For example:

  • Adding free aim to EFT such as Red Orchestra has it. But not everyone likes that.
  • Or generally adding more sway and instability to all sights and optics. Maybe turn to the current amount of sway that occurs when you ADS and are out of stamina - into the default sway.

Hello RAC-W!

Yes, I too think gamers in general have become too accustomed to unrealistically stable semi auto fire when shooting unsupported. For player responsiveness purposes, I agree that semi fire rates should probably remain uncapped. IMO auto should be balanced against semi (ie increase auto bloom) rather than try to shoehorn semi to be better than current auto. But again, there are likely nuances there to consider.

Agree on both of your last points!  There's a detailed three part discussion I ran about a year or so ago on free aim. I was surprised at how few had ever experienced it first hand. I honestly think BSG could do it justice!

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Spectator6
Posted (edited)

Mad props to JoshuaGuzz for creating a video rundown of this topic's discussion on Reddit

Great job on your video Joshua, you make editing look easy man :high_five: Thanks again for reaching out, pleasure to talk with you :)

Edited by Spectator6
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AdhesiveTeflon
Posted (edited)
On 4/5/2019 at 4:53 PM, Spectator6 said:

This is what I mean when I say we've possibly been "spoiled" over all these years by having accurate fire be overly controlled by nothing more than a few small mouse movements. In real life, it's much more difficult to place accurate shots. And in this way, I feel EFT is on the right path (again, not yet fully arrived, but in my book, definitely getting there).

I think this is the critical point that a lot of people don't realize in the game with "all these headshots are too easy and unrealistic".

Whilst automatic fire is definitely not hard to control to the maximum range for a point-target (assuming the user is not standing up),  the user does get used to the burst patterns after the first initial rounds like you said.  Definitely not as harsh as EFT made it in the past few patches though.

Edited by AdhesiveTeflon
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Spectator6
2 minutes ago, AdhesiveTeflon said:

I think this is the critical point that a lot of people don't realize in the game with "all these headshots are too easy and unrealistic".

Whilst automatic fire is definitely not hard to control, like you said the operator does get used to the burst patterns after the first initial rounds.  Definitely not as harsh as EFT made it in the past few patches though.

Thank you for highlighting this @AdhesiveTeflon!

Here is a series of comparison videos that speak to what you're saying: 

https://old.reddit.com/r/EscapefromTarkov/comments/bawmpo/in_relation_to_full_auto_recoil_can_anybody_link/ekepomy/

And here is a link to a discussion I had with a FailCorgi, where we hash out how EFT might be able to find a more reasonable place for semi-auto and bursts within its current recoil framework: 

https://old.reddit.com/r/EscapefromTarkov/comments/b9w97y/a_deep_dive_into_recoil_mechanics/ek8hh1j/

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AdhesiveTeflon

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CooH1e2

First of all Thanks for such structured and well explained threat and the same for Joshua's video. I really like the explanation about bloom and cursor movement analysis and the rate fire as factor to be considered.

I've been also thinking about the recoil system and was completely shocked about Pestily's analysis. I was not aware about EFT recoil control in full auto (specially in hip/aimed fire vs ADS). I was using my logic and keeping full auto only for short distances and semi for long. Always trying to go ADS if possible thinking that difference in control was huge.

I share completely the EFT approach about not correcting recoil only by a simple mouse movement like in other games (gun recoil , character recoil control, ... ) but I still feel that at this point it's not fully implemented and still some enhancement is needed.  I think the should work to avoid this laser full auto effect. 

 

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Spectator6
Posted (edited)

Hello @CooH1e2! Thanks for chiming in brother, I appreciate you input!

I wonder if the "final" stage of full-auto was modified to be something like this, if it would help 1) make the full auto "pattern" seem more reasonable and 2) also serve to give semi auto a more discernable advantage?

Here's a visual...

The current full auto firing "pattern" seems to resemble something like this:

text3988a.thumb.png.ecadbe2421006e9891567ff682466c9a.png

Perhaps modifying the "last" stage to look something along these lines might help give full-auto fire a more reasonable pattern?

text3988b.thumb.png.7fe553c9d12d538e56a5a3cd8b725d50.png

In regard to semi-auto fire, what if BSG implemented some sort of semi-auto firing rate boundary that can be modified by player stats/skills?

For example, let's say that for Rifle A, as long as the player fires under 240 rounds per minute (four shots per second), the firing pattern will resemble something along these lines. In the background, the bloom shapes and aim points could always be expanding fully in line with the above, but quickly "shrinking" down the below shapes and sizes in order to "match" that rpm value?

text3988c.thumb.png.fff8e6d27f215fe06ba1df131636037c.png

NOTE: These are tighter and more consistent than the first pattern shown above

Imagine it like these shapes and positions are constantly "breathing", inhaling and exhaling, growing and shrinking. As long as the player "times" his shots so he's catching the rhythm/cadence near 240 rpm, he'll benefit from the reduced sizes. But as he tries to shoot faster and outpace this cadence, he'll start to "catch" the larger shapes/patterns instead. 

Does that make sense?

And both the bloom shapes/shot patterns and rpm "threshold values" would of course vary by caliber, weapon modifications, mastery levels, etc. So someone who is a Master level shot with, say, an MP5 will benefit from tighter groupings and more responsive performance across all fire modes.

BSG may be able to even break this out further by distinguishing between full auto experience vs semi-auto experience. This way, a player who takes out a rifle and primary shoots semi auto, should not get the added benefit of "mastering" the full-auto bloom shape and aim point timings as well. On the flip side, perhaps full-auto experience could improve semi auto fire at a reduced rate? So someone who fires in semi will improve at 1X rate. But a player who always fires in full auto will still improve his semi performance, but maybe at a reduced rate, say 0.40X the regular rate.
 
Thoughts?

 

Edited by Spectator6
replace image, restructure post
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CooH1e2
Posted (edited)

Hi @Spectator6

It makes sense completely for me and I follow your logic perfectly! 

I'd like to have an auto recoil pattern more similar to this image you've done:

image.png.2a608e06912493b87a6033557ed2e291.png

We can divide it clearly in the two phases you already draw "weapon aim point movement" and uncertainity "bloom shape" to analyze both.

- Weapon aim point movement

This is the movement of the gun due to the forces generated during the shoot. IRL I guess this is linked to the weapon characteristics /attachments that changes the forces themselves (currently reflected in the game by the weapon vertical/horizontal recoil), and the strength / ability of the shooter to compensate these forces and come back faster to the original position.

I like partly the current approach in EFT as I think they somehow represent the area where the gun moves related to the cursorand it's why we see this pattern of kicking the gun up when shooting. Depending on the gun this movement is higher or lower designating an area size accordingly where the gun may end up (squared doted line) considering the horizontal and vertical recoil of he gun.

High recoil gun one shot

image.png.2790bc1877f5809c70e17d172efbfdff.png

Low recoil gun one shot

image.png.f27dca77f415b91a501915edd8e7d24b.png

My guess is that currently this kick is working similar to this and the area of possible movement is always considered from the cursor but not considering if the second shot (firing rate is important here) was done before coming back to the original position or not.

In my opinion movement area should be linked to the weapon aim point

Several shots  with current are from cursor

image.png.eede38b5b885d08b0760aefe5f782686.png

Several shots with are linked to aim

image.png.7e1d144719d62b25dc081b2825d7b4fb.png

 

This way your character mastery can be linked to improve the speed to come back to the original position including this optimal firing rate for your level for precise shooting and would disencourage  full auto laser shooting as the automatic fire rate will be always above the optimal fire rate even for max level character ability and will encourage semi firing styles for mid long situations or short  auto firing.

- Bloom Shape

I also have the same approach as you showed in th elast post. This is showing the uncertain area where bullet end up around the pointed position.

It's somehow the little sway of the gun and the small movements form the shooter. Here is where mastery PMC on each kind of guns should be considered reducing the area around the aimed point.

I also think that this should increase or decrease if the gun is moving or back in the initial  position. Again being a benefit for players that shoot according to their optimal fire rate and  against full auto. 

image.png.17d97dd1950fc3f248d4787685412651.png

In fact I think this is already applied for the breathing part, but not sure if this is considered for the time the gun comes back after first kick. Considering the videos like the one from Pestily I think the situation is similar to this one, making that all the auto shoots are around the same upper area of the square without spreading:

image.png.2905a852fe25418055cef7f709f50900.png

 

If you combine both effects this would be the result

image.png.95761d3f555709cf034fe49dd5e00c76.png

 

This way you end up with a pattern similar to the one you described for full auto encouraging people to fire semi auto and respecting their fire rate, according to their mastery skills and weapon characteristics waiting for th egun to come back to positionbefore takinf the next shot.

 

These are only my guessings and ideas of how this game recoil works and how would improve, but maybe I'm wrong . I'm fully open to any correction, comments, thoughts or additional suggestions :)

 

P.S. For sure...  this patterns are oversized to show the idea behind and the final results should be adjusted and balanced but I think this is a good way to reflect real recoil and uncertainity of shooting, specially in full auto and allowing impreove it via mastery skills according to the game system.

 

 

image.png

Edited by CooH1e2
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Spectator6

Wow, great post @CooH1e2!

29 minutes ago, CooH1e2 said:

image.png.17d97dd1950fc3f248d4787685412651.png

YES! This is an excellent depiction of what I mean when I talk about the bloom shape immediately expanding after a shot, then shrinking down. Well done! :)

31 minutes ago, CooH1e2 said:

In fact I think this is already applied for the breathing part, but not sure if this is considered for the time the gun comes back after first kick. Considering the videos like the one from Pestily I think the situation is similar to this one, making that all the auto shoots are around the same upper area of the square without spreading:

image.png.2905a852fe25418055cef7f709f50900.png

So if I'm reading you correctly, you're thinking that the recoil boundary does not "stack" or aggregate. That instead, the "outer limits" of the recoil boundary are determined by the player's initial cursor position. Do I have that right?

Also mind if I take a moment to clarify what your symbols represent?

  • Crosshair - this represents where the weapon aim point
  • Orange circle around the crosshair - this represents the potential "miss area" where, while taking the shot, the character slightly brings his muzzle off target.
  • Large dotted square - this represents the "recoil boundary" for where the weapon aim point may end up immediately following a shot.

Do I have those right?

1 hour ago, CooH1e2 said:

If you combine both effects this would be the result

image.png.95761d3f555709cf034fe49dd5e00c76.png

Does this ever allow for the muzzle to be pulled off line in a slightly downward direction too? To "jump" to a slightly lower position immediately following a shot?

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CooH1e2

Thanks @Spectator6!

I was just interpreting your ideas about recoil and how this could be added :)

On ‎4‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 5:49 PM, Spectator6 said:

So if I'm reading you correctly, you're thinking that the recoil boundary does not "stack" or aggregate. That instead, the "outer limits" of the recoil boundary are determined by the player's initial cursor position. Do I have that right?

Yes, I think this is what's happening know according to the videos of full auto seen by Pestily. Also with the new patch. 

In faac there is this uncertain area (the bloom shape) but doesn't seem to be wide enough.

 

image.png.e0560098697684ea19d64150ae1ebeb0.pngimage.png.ce5de89e5725351126ca78a5e6d3e973.pngimage.png.148d472afbcb41de40884deeed11fa9e.png

All shots escept the first 3 were at this red circle

Minute 2:25  

 

On ‎4‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 5:49 PM, Spectator6 said:

Also mind if I take a moment to clarify what your symbols represent?

  • Crosshair - this represents where the weapon aim point
  • Orange circle around the crosshair - this represents the potential "miss area" where, while taking the shot, the character slightly brings his muzzle off target.
  • Large dotted square - this represents the "recoil boundary" for where the weapon aim point may end up immediately following a shot. 

Do I have those right? 

Completely right!

 

On ‎4‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 5:49 PM, Spectator6 said:

Does this ever allow for the muzzle to be pulled off line in a slightly downward direction too? To "jump" to a slightly lower position immediately following a shot?

Indeed this is something I also considered when drawing the effect but I'm not sure how it feels in real life.

I guess that guns always kick up, but an unexperienced player may overcompensate down too much resulting in a "moving down" effect for the gun aim crosshair. 

The important thing for me is to avoid a clear an stable up pattern (like in other shooters where you can learn it ) but improving current situation where full auto becomes a laser  shotting just few cm up to your mouse position.

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Spectator6
Posted (edited)

Great video and screenshots for comparison @CooH1e2!

Yes, the downward "jumps" typically have more to do with the shooter overcompensating for the recoil than the weapon itself. Of course, there are exceptions to this... Certain muzzle brakes can feel like they're nose-diving the weapon a bit.

Interestingly enough, for those players who do try to actively "steer" the recoil, I've found they'll experience a fairly realistic "jolt" downward once they stop firing too.

8 hours ago, CooH1e2 said:

In faac there is this uncertain area (the bloom shape) but doesn't seem to be wide enough.

image.png.e0560098697684ea19d64150ae1ebeb0.pngimage.png.ce5de89e5725351126ca78a5e6d3e973.pngimage.png.148d472afbcb41de40884deeed11fa9e.png

The important thing for me is to avoid a clear an stable up pattern (like in other shooters where you can learn it ) but improving current situation where full auto becomes a laser  shotting just few cm up to your mouse position.

I agree, I hope BSG continues to widen it out once they fine tune this still "high-ish" assisted recoil control level. Though I'm assuming this is still mid-to-high-end, that they plan on having a "new" PMC with even worse recoil control still. But we'll see :)

I agree with your "important thing"!

It's interesting to see how that 30% avg bump across the board has influenced gameplay so far. I've enjoyed it, how about you?

I still think there's work to do in regard to separating out semi-auto. Hopefully they'll look into some of what everyone has discussed here and on the Reddit thread!

-----

And just as a general sidenote... I don't think this is really necessary, but just to keep things clear. What you've chosen to represent with the dotted square boundary is essentially the same thing I'm trying to represent by my "bloom shapes". They serve the same purpose. I think we're already on the same page there, but just wanted to point that out in case it confuses anyone else.

I like how you talked about the "near misses" too! Could that be what BSG intends by each weapon's "Accuracy" rating? Or maybe it's trying to capture the tolerances and raw/mechanical accuracy of the weapon's make-up itself? Either way, it's neat to have in there!

Edited by Spectator6
add sidenote

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Spectator6
Posted (edited)

In a related discussion on Reddit, u/campclownhonkler proposed something that may or may not already be modeled in EFT.

What if the bloom size for a full auto-firing pattern also increased related to adjustments in point of aim? It could even be responsive to the acceleration of the mouse inputs. Slowly adjust your aim point? Not much of an impact. But quickly jerking the point of aim from one place to another would result in a greater bloom impulse being applied. Once the point of aim stops moving, it would gradually "reset" to its prior bloom levels.

It could also apply to all firing modes too so that snap movements momentarily affect semi-auto or burst-fire accuracy as well.

Thoughts? Improvements?

Edited by Spectator6
typo

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Spectator6
Posted (edited)

Hello @Operator-0 ! Great to hear it brother, thanks for chiming in!

Do you think there is anything unique to EFT that allows you to get into that groove?

EDIT: And thank you for your service :)

Edited by Spectator6

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vekongmaster
On 4/11/2019 at 9:52 PM, Spectator6 said:

Hello @CooH1e2! Thanks for chiming in brother, I appreciate you input!

I wonder if the "final" stage of full-auto was modified to be something like this, if it would help 1) make the full auto "pattern" seem more reasonable and 2) also serve to give semi auto a more discernable advantage?

Here's a visual...

The current full auto firing "pattern" seems to resemble something like this:

text3988a.thumb.png.ecadbe2421006e9891567ff682466c9a.png

Perhaps modifying the "last" stage to look something along these lines might help give full-auto fire a more reasonable pattern?

text3988b.thumb.png.7fe553c9d12d538e56a5a3cd8b725d50.png

In regard to semi-auto fire, what if BSG implemented some sort of semi-auto firing rate boundary that can be modified by player stats/skills?

For example, let's say that for Rifle A, as long as the player fires under 240 rounds per minute (four shots per second), the firing pattern will resemble something along these lines. In the background, the bloom shapes and aim points could always be expanding fully in line with the above, but quickly "shrinking" down the below shapes and sizes in order to "match" that rpm value?

text3988c.thumb.png.fff8e6d27f215fe06ba1df131636037c.png

NOTE: These are tighter and more consistent than the first pattern shown above

Imagine it like these shapes and positions are constantly "breathing", inhaling and exhaling, growing and shrinking. As long as the player "times" his shots so he's catching the rhythm/cadence near 240 rpm, he'll benefit from the reduced sizes. But as he tries to shoot faster and outpace this cadence, he'll start to "catch" the larger shapes/patterns instead. 

Does that make sense?

And both the bloom shapes/shot patterns and rpm "threshold values" would of course vary by caliber, weapon modifications, mastery levels, etc. So someone who is a Master level shot with, say, an MP5 will benefit from tighter groupings and more responsive performance across all fire modes.

BSG may be able to even break this out further by distinguishing between full auto experience vs semi-auto experience. This way, a player who takes out a rifle and primary shoots semi auto, should not get the added benefit of "mastering" the full-auto bloom shape and aim point timings as well. On the flip side, perhaps full-auto experience could improve semi auto fire at a reduced rate? So someone who fires in semi will improve at 1X rate. But a player who always fires in full auto will still improve his semi performance, but maybe at a reduced rate, say 0.40X the regular rate.
 
Thoughts?

 

 

Dear @Spectator6,

I totally agree with you on this. 

Modifying the "last" stage to look something along these lines might help give full-auto fire a more reasonable pattern.

text3988b.thumb.png.7fe553c9d12d538e56a5a3cd8b725d50.png

 The "bloom" or "dispersion" area during full-auto firing should be bigger like in this picture.

 

I hope BSG Devs will consider nerfing the full auto mode a little bit.

 

Regards,

-Vekongmaster-

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Spectator6
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, vekongmaster said:

 

Dear @Spectator6,

I totally agree with you on this. 

Modifying the "last" stage to look something along these lines might help give full-auto fire a more reasonable pattern.

text3988b.thumb.png.7fe553c9d12d538e56a5a3cd8b725d50.png

 The "bloom" or "dispersion" area during full-auto firing should be bigger like in this picture.

 

I hope BSG Devs will consider nerfing the full auto mode a little bit.

 

Regards,

-Vekongmaster-

Hello @vekongmaster, thank you for chiming in!

And I appreciate you linking this thread elsewhere *fist pump*

(I actually never knew you could do that, that's a neat forum feature 😀)

Edited by Spectator6
edit emoji, fix typo

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vekongmaster
19 hours ago, Spectator6 said:

Hello @vekongmaster, thank you for chiming in!

And I appreciate you linking this thread elsewhere *fist pump*

(I actually never knew you could do that, that's a neat forum feature 😀)

 

you're welcome, mate! ^_^

I had to share your thread coz it's the best one that describes how EFT recoil system works.

That explains how PMC with elite level recoil control skill has almost zero recoil spray (which is kinda unrealistic). Basically Elite Level PMC is a freaking recoil ninja.

BSG has to nerf the full auto firing. They can ask any real operator in the world, full auto firing is just not practical and really hard to do.

Nobody ain't gonna get accurate shot with full auto firing.

 

Here's a video of Larry Vickers (legendary Delta Force) doing a full auto firing. He clearly said, "It looks good in movies, but in real world it's pretty much useless."

 

 

I don't want EFT to end up like movies where all the players doing full auto firing with zero recoil. It's just so ridiculous!

 

Regards,

-Vekongmaster- 

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Spectator6
Posted (edited)

Hello all! Quick update, Pestily recently uploaded a video that references our work in this thread and on Reddit. 

See his excellent rundown video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JT6OSx2JPlo

And Pest, f you see this, high-five to ya brother, thank you for increasing visibility on the topic!

Edited by Spectator6
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Spectator6
Posted (edited)
53 minutes ago, Spectator6 said:

Hello all! Quick update, Pestily recently uploaded a video that references our work in this thread and on Reddit. 

See his excellent rundown video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JT6OSx2JPlo

And Pest, f you see this, high-five to ya brother, thank you for increasing visibility on the topic!

@vekongmaster @CooH1e2 @AdhesiveTeflon @RACWAR Cheers mates! *toasts a round of vodka

Edited by Spectator6
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vekongmaster
22 hours ago, Spectator6 said:

@vekongmaster @CooH1e2 @AdhesiveTeflon @RACWAR Cheers mates! *toasts a round of vodka

Dear @Spectator6,

Cheers, mate! :D I hope the Devs will nerf the Recoil Control & Weapon Skill big time. No more recoil ninja, please!

And totally agree with Pestily on the implementation of Weapon Jam due to Overheating. 

Non-stop full-auto firing should cause weapon malfunction or stoppages in EFT!

Here's some good reading on Weapon Overheating :

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:jfcx-qYc0zIJ:https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/7jevhg/eli5_why_is_it_bad_if_firearms_overheat_why_do/+&cd=12&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=id 

https://www.quora.com/Can-overheating-really-cause-a-machine-gun-to-jam-Is-it-because-of-the-warping-of-internals-or-something-else

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooking_off

 

Regards,

-Vekongmaster- 

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AdhesiveTeflon
Posted (edited)
50 minutes ago, vekongmaster said:

And totally agree with Pestily on the implementation of Weapon Jam due to Overheating. 

Non-stop full-auto firing should cause weapon malfunction or stoppages in EFT!

Weapon malfunctions because of overheating is extremely rare.  A magazine/general malfunctions will happen long before heat becomes an issue for weapon. A runaway gun will really only happen in belt-fed weapons like the M2 or M240 because of the purpose of the weapon - suppression and fire support and because you're not actually holding the weapon anywhere near the barrel so you won't feel how hot it is (but then again, they always have a second barrel to use while the first barrel cools down.)

Edited by AdhesiveTeflon
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PardTheTroll
Posted (edited)
vor 32 Minuten schrieb AdhesiveTeflon:

Weapon malfunctions because of overheating is extremely rare.

Not only rare, but you would need to shoot quite a lot in a single sitting to archive something like this. I wonder where people get that overheating mechanic from? To many sci-fi games?

P.S. They could add more smoke effect to the weapons itself though, when it is getting hotter. Maybe even glow in the night 😜 

Edited by PardTheTroll
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Spectator6
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, PardTheTroll said:

Not only rare, but you would need to shoot quite a lot in a single sitting to archive something like this. I wonder where people get that overheating mechanic from? To many sci-fi games?

P.S. They could add more smoke effect to the weapons itself though, when it is getting hotter. Maybe even glow in the night 😜 

Yes, great reference @PardTheTroll and @AdhesiveTeflon!

Like you guys, this is the first thing I thought of after hearing Pestily's comments. To my knowledge, failures to feed, jamming, etc is most often related to magazine malfunctions or pressure deficiencies from poor ammo. 

But from overheating? Definitely not in any reasonable timeframe. Meltdown videos are readily available, here's one for the AK

With these things in mind, tying weapon jamming to magazine size and/or magazine health (though I'm not sure that's tracked at the moment) would make much more sense. But because a barrel and its friend get toasty? Not very likely. We're talking a continuous feed of hundreds of not thousands of rounds.

-----

@vekongmaster Great links! Do you know offhand how common that actually is out in the field? Want to be sure we're all rocking solid intel.

-----

As we've discussed at length throughout this excellent thread, I feel it's best for automatic fire to have restrictive applications because of its inaccuracy first and foremost. Because whether or not the weapon jams, it's on target performance is VERY POOR compared to semi-auto fire.

Good one gents! Let's keep up the knowledge-bombs, hopefully BSG is taking note!

Edited by Spectator6
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